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  Topic Review (Newest First)
01-09-2002 04:10 AM
Difference in boat prices?

Yes, Rugosa, is my Laser 28 that is for sale. She is currently under contract and got a very clean bill of health in survey on Monday. The Laser 28 has been a super boat for my use and has heald up extremely well.

I am not associated with RogueWave other than being friends with bernie, the owner of the company. bernie listed my boat on YachtWorld as a favor to me but is not acting as the broker, instead simply refering any inquiries to me to handle.

I have not been to bernie''s site in a while so I am not sure what services Bob Perry is offering. I think it is helpful to have reliable sources to kick around boat buying ideas with. You need to filter the advise a bit by knowing the sources preferences (Obviously in my case I have a very strong and obvious leaning toward higher performance and toward realistic boats for the venue that people actually will be sailing in.) Bob Perry''s bias (and its a good one in my book) is toward boats that have a lot of integrity for what they are. So when looking at traditional boats, he seems to review them relative to other traditional boats (i.e asking is this an honest high quality design for a traditional boat?). He also seems to do the same for more modern designs and race boats for that matter. Perry seems to have a personal preference for fast, simple performance cruisers but I really don''t know the man other than exchanging a few emails so I am simply judging him on his writings. I would suggest that you email him and ask about his services and see if it gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling.

01-08-2002 06:49 PM
Difference in boat prices?

Thanks for the reply dpinorm, She who must be obeyed is thrilled to learn that she too will become an Admiral one day :-)

Mining the vendors for information sounds like a smart strategy, thanks.
01-08-2002 06:40 PM
Difference in boat prices?

Thanks for the explanation Jeff. Just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly, did you mean faster rather than slower when you wrote "so results in a smaller angle of roll or pitch albeit at a slower rate." Thanks also for your book recommendation(and the ones on the other classic texts thread), sounds like something I need to add to the growing pile.

I took a look at the Rogue wave site, is that Laser 28 "Rugosa" the one you are selling? at_id=886474
Very nice looking boat, I believe you when you say they are fast. As I mentioned my timeline for the boat I will be doing the offshore stuff in is 4-5 years (by then we will be based somewhere along the East coast). In the interim I will be based here in St Louis and have decided to get a racer in summer of 2003 to practice on Lake Michigan (basing it out of Chicago where my brother and future crew member for the Fastnet lives). Looks like a boat like the Laser 28 would be ideal.

I also saw the consultation service that is offered by Bob Perry, I don''t know what your relationship is if any to him but are you at liberty to comment on his services one way or the other? I will have allot of questions as I start to narrow down my choices and being able to e-mail him for what he is charging sounds like a great deal.
01-08-2002 05:26 AM
Difference in boat prices?

From experience, I agree with the previous post regarding motion. Add to that my personal preference for performance and the carbon rig and light ends is an obvious conclusion for me.

There are two basic categories of modifications:

1) Those for the Admiral, like washer/dryer, ice maker, extra cabinets, custom fabrics etc. They always get done!

2) Those for the Captain. They get done with whatís left after 1).

I modify things like refrigeration, electric power production and management, and electronics. Not always because they arenít satisfactory the way they come, but just because after all these years Iím used to doing things in a way that works for me.

Spars, standing/running rigging, safety equipment and sails are the things that take up most of my effort. Especially on a carbon rig, itís not easy to add things that arenít designed in from the beginning.

My advice would be to read what you can, look at other boats and talk to their owners, and talk to vendors. In the end, I think the best route is to select vendors you trust and have them help you with your selections.
01-07-2002 02:19 AM
Difference in boat prices?

This whole business of motion is a very complex subject, but increasing the moment of interia slows the motion of a boat but increases the kinetic energy so that a boat with a heavier mast will roll (or pitch) more slowly but through a wider angle.

Most of us have gotten the basics of Motion Science from Marchaj''s book on seaworthiness or from someone who learned it from Tony''s book, BUT a lot has been learned since that book was written.

Probably the most critical factors in terms of comfort at sea, (beside length) is the height of the center of gravity (low is good), moment of interia, and the shape of the hull. But when you tall about a large moment of inertia above the the momentary roll axis, you are increasing the roll angle in order to gain a slightly slower motion. When you talk about a carbon spar, that lowers the center of gravity and moment of inertia pretty dramatically and so results in a smaller angle of roll or pitch albeit at a slower rate.

In studies of seasickness, there are clearly two factors that affect whether people get seasick, the amount of motion (roll or pitch angle) and the speed of accellerations of the motion. Individuals have differing tollerances to both. Some people have a small tollerance only for larger angles of motion while others have only a smaller tollerance for quick motion and still others have a small tollerance bor both.

There is a common misunderstanding about motion that any way that you can get greater inertia is good for seaworthiness and comfort able motion, so you see people moving weight to the bow and stern or up the mast. While these may slow motion slightly they can also decrease seaworthiness by making a boat more prone to pitchpole, take serious water over the deck and roll through dangerous angles. Now then adding weight deep on the keel, both increases inertia,and increases dampening and therefore reduces both roll rate and angle. But like everthing else there is a bit of a trade off to that as well.

01-06-2002 03:16 PM
Difference in boat prices?

Thanks for the input dpinorm. I had been wondering if the way to go might have been to buy something like a new Beneteau First 40.7 and do some modifications to strengthen her and then after about 10 years sell her and get another new boat of the same type but the more I read the less I think this may the way to go. Also from reading the setsail site I am now thinking that perhaps I should be thinking about a bigger boat to begin with.

If it is convenient for you to do so I wonder if you could share some of the modifications that you are doing or if you have any books that you would recommend on the subject.

One last thing, you mention the motion of the boat is affected by a carbon mast for the better. I would have thought that having a heavier mast (I assume that the carbon rig is lighter) would give a higher moment of inertia and thus less motion (and less chance of knockdown and capsize). I know that I am not understanding something here (probably what is meant by motion?) and maybe someone could enlighten me?
01-04-2002 07:21 AM
Difference in boat prices?

Thanks Jeff, I will have the time over the next two years to go and visit the boat yards of the manufacturers mentioned in this thread and hopefully have a sea trial of the various boats.

The next step will be to charter the ones that really pique my interest and read as much as I can about them. If you wouldn''t mind me contacting you by e-mail during this stage I would be very appreciative of your input.

Thanks again for all your help and my wife and I look forward to meeting you in person sometime during this whole process.

Best regards,
01-04-2002 07:08 AM
Difference in boat prices?

You''ve been getting a lot of great advice, but let me add one thing that hasen''t been stressed here.

Don''t think of performance and light (but strong) construction as strictly an advantage in winning races. I did over 20,000 miles in a J40. The boat was heavily modified for long distance cruising and a good bit heavier than her deisgn weight, but still performed very well. It was great to make a passage in, say, 30 hours rather than 40 hours. If you''re getting pounded, saving even an hour at sea can seem like a lot at the time. Also, boats with light ends and carbon rigs often have better motions in a seaway.

I always felt that volume production boats required a lot of (expensive) modifications for me to feel comfortable in offshore. I felt it was better to start with a boat where the design priorities were more oriented towards passagemaking to begin with. Hugh volumes in cabins without adequate handholds look great at boat shows, but try walking through the cabin in a seaway.

I''m in the process of building a Sabre 452 now. I had narrowed my search down to that or a J46. I have been impressed with the quality of Sabre''s construction and selection of components. Also, they are very nice people to deal with. Still, I have "pages" of modifications and additions to make what I consider a true passagemaker out of her. This Spring, I''ll find out if I''ve succeded.

Good luck in your journey. I hope your sailing dreams are fulfilled with the same joy as mine have been.
01-03-2002 04:42 PM
Difference in boat prices?

I am an architect and I am not in the boating industry these days. I do help people find boats, as a hobby but not for fee. In most cases people email me and we start a dialogue in which I am providing a ''second opinion''. There are people on this BB who I have assisted in thier search for the right boat. When it comes to actually brokering boats I leave that to the professionals and I generally have used brokers when I have had to buy a boat. Feel free to email if you want to kick this around further.

I am not exactly sure how to advise you further except that I would suggest that you spend time doing exactly what you are doing; getting sailing experience on a wide range of boats through chartering and through sailing clubs, reading, asking questions on sailing bulletin boards.

I do have very mixed feelings about ''buyers brokers''. Some clearly seem reliable and dedicated to the buyers but others have struck me as con men who have found a new racket. Because Buyer Broker''s are supposedly working for the Buyer people endow them with greater trust but they are still working for a commission like any other broker and so in my book have no real advantage over any other legitimate broker.

Finding a good broker is not always easy. I worked with a really good broker here in Annapolis when I bought my boat and he has helped me on several occasions with people who have turned to me to help them find a boat. I really do not know any brokers up on the Great Lakes where you are currently sailing.

01-03-2002 08:58 AM
Difference in boat prices?

Thanks again Jeff for your thoughtful response.

I can see that I am going to need the help of a good buyer''s agent in this process as there are allot of technical components to it and I would rather not be at the mercy of the marketing dept.s of the boat companies.
Do you do this type of work Jeff? If not could you recommend someone for me?

Also, any book recommendations on modern yatch construction methods would be much appreciated. (I have read desirable and undesirable characteristics of Offshore yatchs).

Thanks again and have a great 2002.
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