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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?
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Thread: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-22-2013 05:00 AM
JackandJude
Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

You really should have that spleen of yours checked out. My, my, but you are having a bad day. Take a chill pill mate. You'll bust a gasket.

My "Childishly" comment was based on your precise description of the scenario. "After I made his sail and shipped it he never said much initially, but then there came a while slew of messages." I did not complain at first, being high and dry fixing up my boat I just couldn't fly the sail, nor was it top priority just then. But you are wrong, I never threaten.

Now it's my turn. You sit there miles away, ill informed, never bothering to actually find out what or who, and have the gall to slander me and act high and mighty. Now who's showing the world their inner self?
Send me your email address and I'll send you our first book. You'll come to know Jude and I a lot better. And get a glimpse of this part of the world. It is a good read, plenty have said so, but being the hyper disbeliever I take you to be, I could put up a few reviews, but then I'd be promoting my work.
No hard feelings at this end. But why are you getting so worked up if you are not a part of the action??
02-22-2013 12:41 AM
chef2sail
Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackandJude View Post
Jude asked me to keep monitoring this thread so I came back online to say just that - and received a double barrel from chef2sail

Have it your way mate - but you sound far from "the casual observer" you claim.
This is exactly what I mean about your posts. Here I am 14,000 miles away, dont know you from Adam, have absolutley no relationship with you, your sailmaker or any other sailmaker so how much more casual observer could I be. Childishly you infer that I have some skin in the game by stating I "sound far from the casual observer". Care to explain what you meant? It appears your you mentality that anyone who disagrees with your points of view has it in for you.

And yes now it appears contrary to what you stated your goal or intention was it really is to besmirch the reputation of the Sailmaker who was willing to fix his problem and yes you are trying to ruin him by using the internet. You have gone back on what you said in a previous post.

So you can look at yourselves and pretend to be these old grandparents who are poor and travel with the wind and are throw backs to the USA flower children. You can portray yourselves that way and even dellusionally beleive your own clippings and musings and write a book of your travals and trevails. But the fact is as you have stated you have USED THE INTERNET to try and get back at and ruin someone. In additon you have done this systematically on various sites. BTW I dont think my grandparents would have ever handled it this way, nor would my parents, nor would I.

And oh BTW if you decide to come and use the Internet against people there will be other people on the internet who may....yes just may...have a different opinion than yours...and they will feel free like I, to exercise their opinions as you have, so dont act incredulous when they do. BYW this reaction you have incurred here on SN also had occured on the other sailing sites you have posted this attack of the sailmaker on so I must not be alone in my thinking, as you were met with rebukes there also. Your continued posting will just cement my views, and yes continue the Internet dialogue concerning your ethics.

Leave the sailmaker alone, take his offer of compensation ( he could have told you to pound sand IMHO if he didnt care), go somewhere else and getter a better sail for $1500 ( you havent learned your lesson yet as others have pointed out), and sail away and leave your anger about this and foolishness behind you in the setting sun. You will be happier if you just let it go vrs being vindictive.
02-21-2013 07:12 PM
JackandJude
Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

Jude asked me to keep monitoring this thread so I came back online to say just that - and received a double barrel from chef2sail

Have it your way mate - but you sound far from "the casual observer" you claim.
So I'll answer you in that vein. Somerset Sails did not need quote or accept the job. But once accepted, to me that means you fulfill the obligation you accepted, profit or not.

Jude thinks the internet is fast becoming a place to hold suppliers accountable. For instance our Facebook page has an American lady lambasting a car dealer for selling her a dud that was promised to be OK. Ebay works on the system of recommendations. I think its a good idea to share information on those that dud us because we buy so much more online.

chef2sail you can see this anyway you wish. But you are wrong on all counts. Even incorrect about promoting our books. You'll find few links to them on this thread, when in fact, I could be sticking in plugs for our products left right and center. The only reference here is to Where Wild Winds Blow because I sent a copy to the sailmaker after one of our long and friendly telephone chats.

This might make you feel real good, but we have not sold one book to sailnet people. They're not interested in Australian stories, and have no need for the Cruising Guides we publish - which if you're interested are available FREE off our website (That's a PLUG) And while there you might also grab a few FREE poster prints, Or a FREE java Almanac and sight reduction form that works offline. Or even some hints on KNOTS -FREE Also. But if you really want to be a big spender then dip in your pocket for the price of a coke and get a copy of our Australian Circumnavigation. You just might learn something about this amazing island country that spans tropics to the Great Southern Ocean. Oh and in there are tons of hints on how Jack and Jude, two elderly folk on their own, still manage a 14 tonne vessel across some of the world's toughest oceans. I won't put a link in for that because you'll claim I'm trying to get rich and famous.
02-21-2013 06:19 PM
Classic30
Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackandJude View Post
MedSailor
Questions to the OP, you said 3 lofts quoted you similar prices. Inquiring minds want to know, who else out there is selling sails that cheap?
Taskers and Lee Sails quoted the same or less, delivered
Jack/Jude, alarm bells are ringing here!

Taskers sails are made in SE Asia somewhere (I but don't remember exactly where) and it's probable that Lee Sails are also, although they didn't used to be many moons ago. Please don't wander into the same pothole again.

The biggest issue with these sails (speaking from experience with Taskers) is not the quality of the cloth - that's generally fine - it's the single (or missing!) stitching and generally crappy workmanship. If you know what you want (eg. a light-air spinnaker) it's generally no issue.. you just need eyes wide open when dealing with these guys because, yes, you do get what you pay for.

You'll be paying more to have the right thing done, but if you're even thinking of going anywhere else I'd suggest you contact either Doyle Sails or Steve Walker Sails, both "real" sailmakers and both in Hobart. If you're stuck with the sail you have, take it in to one of them and ask them to fix it.

Good luck.
02-21-2013 06:11 PM
chef2sail
Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackandJude View Post

MarkSF
"What I'm uncomfortable with is the OP using this discussion forum as a proxy to put leverage on the sailmaker."

Mark, It has never been our intention to put leverage on the sailmaker. Or punish him as others have mentioned.



[
blt2skiAnd that brings me to my last point - Some out there want to apply their perverse thinking to this - He's cheap, he's a scoundrel who got what he deserved. He's an extortionist trying to get a free sail. Well, we are none of those things. We are elderly folk who have sailed ocean all their lives. We have two loving sons who we raised afloat, educating them to year 10 and 11, we now have 9 grandchildren, everyone in our family lives within cooee of us. In your language that means we can shout and they'll hear.
Jude and I were in business while we got our assets up to scratch for our old age, and never had one complaint - never. We did plenty of jobs for little pay when the party did not have a lot. We figured the goodwill would help us one day, and like I said at the beginning, felt we owed big time for all the doors that have been opened for us.

, Buy a sail from Somerset Sails and you may regret like us.


This cover is second edition, the first showed a smidgen of sail flying
First you say this

Quote:
Mark, It has never been our intention to put leverage on the sailmaker. Or punish him as others have mentioned
And then you say this

Quote:
Buy a sail from Somerset Sails and you may regret like us.
To the casual observer, which I, am it seems your statements are disengenuous. Then you couple that with the FACT you ahve been on multiple sailing sites posting similar dissatisfactions with the sailmaker I would say you are in fact trying to destroy the sail makers reputation.

No doubt that the sail was not what you expected and appears to be ( just by a picture you posted) less than meeting your specs that you wanted. See heres where the problem comes in. You take absolutely no repsonsibility in this. Why did you accept this sail in the first place if it wasnt what you wanted? You went with this soley on price, a ridicuously low price to boot for what it appears you requirements were. There were other SN tested sailmakers on line that had good reputable customers. You ignored that suggestions,cause i guiess you know better ( you sail in the roaring 40s). Be thats as it may, the sailmaker is willing to make good, but you want a pound of flesh. You want to ruin him online. And you continue to spew.

I wonder if we talked to the sailmaker we wouldnt get this scenerio. He started out with a simple request for a sail. He boasted a lot about all his experience and even talked about his sailling all over creation and his book. He sent me specs and I tried to make the best sail I could to the price point he gave me, which by the way even below the bottom end. he even gave me the price of a few large mail order sail lofts and asked if I could beat them as he wanted to keep his business local. After I made his sail and shipped it he never said much initially, but then there came a while slew of messages and threats. He ran on and on I should have visted HIS site and KNOWN how he sailed and should have taken an interest in him.r the measly $1500 he was willing to spend. He wanted a Rolls Royce for Chevy prices. I tried to make good and appease him to no avail. He even threatened to ruin my name all over the internet if I didnt give him what I wanted. I offered to take back the sail or even fix things, but he wanted me to take a total loss. He accepts no responsisbility and has done as he stated by going on many sailing sites and slamming me. Thank goodness some of the other sailors on these sites can see thorugh him some. I hope he stops soon.

Sir, I question your motives. As the casual observer, you boast an awful lot about yourself. You explain how you are this poor man who just wants to sail and see the world and love it. Thats cool. And then .....oh by the way I wrote a book, and oh by the way here is the name of it...and oh by the way the second edition is out, and heres a picture of it
Quote:
This cover is second edition, the first showed a smidgen of sail flying
http://jackandjude.com/wordpress/wp-...6/WWWB_2ed.jpg

So here are the facts sir, that everyone can see without prejudice

FACT: You have accomplished what you wanted...you smeared the sailmaker on multiple sites and denigrated his name

FACT: You have managed to promote you book, without speding a dime, which I am sure the proceeds go to charity and not you (sic)

FACT: The original sailmaker offered to make good, but you refused
beacsue it may cost you shipping and by continuing your posting you could make a name for yourself and promote your book

Get going and go sailing, have fun....enjoy yourself. Fair winds and calm seas. At least till edition three of your book comes out
02-21-2013 05:59 PM
Classic30
Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
You honestly think that I'll have trouble finding a sailmaker to put together a quality set of string sails in this economy for a 25 footer? There have been 7-800 Merit 25's made. I think any reputable sailmaker can figure it out. Ulman, Q, NS, Doyle, UK, etc. Merits are similar to J24s which gives the designers (not the same as sailmakers/salesmen) a pretty good starting point. The person designing the sail is not working at your local loft.

What 'numbers?' are you talking about? Almost all numbers for boats are online. Given those, any experienced designer can make a sail that will work. From there, it's about R&D and time on the water.
Perhaps you need to do a little more research...

If all you're interested in is a set of stock-standard sails for your stock-standard little boat I'm sure even the local canvas supplier will be able to make you a set. For now I'll merely point out that neither me nor the OP fit into that category.

... and, FWIW, the person designing my sails is most definitely working at my local loft. If he wasn't, I'd go someplace else.
02-21-2013 05:09 PM
JackandJude
Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

Hello everyone - been out of touch for a few days sailing up Tasmania's East coast to the Furneaux Group in Bass Strait - that's in what's called the Roaring Forties, a endless circle of ocean with an endless procession of depressions, big seas round here.

MarkSF
"What I'm uncomfortable with is the OP using this discussion forum as a proxy to put leverage on the sailmaker."

Mark, It has never been our intention to put leverage on the sailmaker. Or punish him as others have mentioned. I've said this somewhere in this thread, but we've been helped by literally thousands of others during our life afloat. There are many out there that are no so well experienced and others looking for "good deals." Jude and I just don't want them to make our mistake.

Luck66 said it, SN is a good place to to start when doing research for new stuff for your boat.

We wanted to get a discussion going to let everyone know what a lot of trouble our dealing with this loft has caused us. We're suppose to be exploring the fjords of NZ South Island right now. Instead we are heading home to fix up a sail. It is not about the money.

MedSailor
Questions to the OP, you said 3 lofts quoted you similar prices. Inquiring minds want to know, who else out there is selling sails that cheap?
Taskers and Lee Sails quoted the same or less, delivered

Advice to the OP: Send the sail back. It is absolutely clear that this sail will not suit you at all. Your options are :
1. Fix it.
2. Buy another.

Yep, going to do one of those two. Getting new prices ATM, and will have someone local look at this one. The cloth seems good. The attachments suck, and the edges are diabolical.

lancelot9898 goes to the head of the class. A picture is worth a thousand words. The sailmaker knew we sail blue water and in the big stuff. Our website is plastered with it. We told him on the phone. We sent him our latest book whose cover shows Banyandah with a smidgen of rag up, spume flying, the ocean white in a first class gale. And he made us the mainsail from hell that you'd wonder about on a lake.

blt2ski Appreciate your concern for our book sales and good name. The books are out there to entertain and help newbies organize their ships and shipboard routines. Read point one above. We actually are trying to help others here.

And that brings me to my last point - Some out there want to apply their perverse thinking to this - He's cheap, he's a scoundrel who got what he deserved. He's an extortionist trying to get a free sail. Well, we are none of those things. We are elderly folk who have sailed ocean all their lives. We have two loving sons who we raised afloat, educating them to year 10 and 11, we now have 9 grandchildren, everyone in our family lives within cooee of us. In your language that means we can shout and they'll hear.
Jude and I were in business while we got our assets up to scratch for our old age, and never had one complaint - never. We did plenty of jobs for little pay when the party did not have a lot. We figured the goodwill would help us one day, and like I said at the beginning, felt we owed big time for all the doors that have been opened for us.

This is all becoming a bit stressful for us. And seeing we're on the road again, enjoying the Good Earth, feeling her good vibes, I may not come back to visit this thread. Oh, I will start a new thread when we arrive home to let those interested know how the sail performed. So far so good, but we've only done a few hundred miles. One last word though, Buy a sail from Somerset Sails and you may regret like us.
Cheers all from down under where the wind is calling us to run free.

This cover is second edition, the first showed a smidgen of sail flying
02-21-2013 03:39 PM
DivingOtter
Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

There was actually another local guy named Dave Balent here in Lavallette who was a great guy. Had a loft with an old 1940s sewing machine, a hole cut in the floor with a board to stand on so you worked at floor level, utter chaos of sails hanging from the rafters and all over the floor that somehow knew where EVERYTHING was. Its sad to see how people have the mind of " how little work can i actually perform while making the most profit?"
02-21-2013 03:34 PM
DivingOtter
Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

I went with a local sailmaker for my main about 2 years back after the old one ripped in a storm. Im a firm believer in local business support so he came measured had a beer on board and chewed the rag a bit. Went to pick up the sail at his shop in a detached garage. It was full of old and new sails but when I asked where is sewing machine, tools of the trade etc etc were. The response I got was " oh no, i dont MAKE the sails, I order them from Taiwan.. Yeah its WAY too pricey to have it made here!" I told him thank you for the sail but I will be purchasing my Jib elsewhere. Even the bag toted his company name with American Made Sails. Now had I known that I would have paid the extra couple hundred bucks and gone elsewhere because all he really did was come and take measurements which i could have easily done myself.
02-21-2013 02:00 PM
MedSailor
Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
To me a picture is worth a thousand words, and that picture shows me that the sail provided might be suitable for a dinghy sailing on a small inland lake. I too would be upset about receiving such a sail provided the sailmaker knew that I was a blue water sailor.
I'm inclined to agree here. While there ARE always two sides to a story, and we're only getting one of them here, I can't really see how a sailmaker could make a sail like the one in the picture and ship it to someone planning on going offshore.

Questions to the OP, you said 3 lofts quoted you similar prices. Inquiring minds want to know, who else out there is selling sails that cheap?

Advice to the OP: Send the sail back. It is absolutely clear that this sail will not suit you at all. Your options are :
1. Fix it.
2. Buy another.

I don't think option 1 is a viable one, and keeping it around does you no good either. If you send the sail back, you have some pennies in your pocket to try and recover. Perhaps you could rethink the full battens or the track and get a sail without full battens or a Tides Track from Lee (or one of your other low bidders) for the $800 you will get back. That would at least get you an offshore sail and get you sailing.

Another options is sell the brand new sail on E-bay. Maybe there is a placid lake sailor with a big boat that would like a bargain on a new sail. That way you could keep your Tides Track and recoup some costs towards a new sail.

Good Luck,

MedSailor
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