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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > MOB Recovery in gale conditions
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Thread: MOB Recovery in gale conditions Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-20-2013 03:38 PM
PCP
Re: MOB Recovery in gale conditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by knuterikt View Post
Interesting to follow the drift of this thread..

The problem addressed in the OP was a man drowning after falling overboard while still clipped on to the boat.

So there was never a situation where getting back to the MOB was a problem.

The reason he died was that he was dragged after the boat with head under water for a while before they started the effort to get him back on board.
It took 16 minute from the MOB was discovered until he was back on board.
From the report http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...LionReport.pdf
...
This is not the first time that a man dies because he is dragged by the boat while others are trying to put him up while still attached to the jackline. I had already given some thought to it and in my opinion the better thing to do, if the man is not hurt and has a life jacket, is to cut quickly the line that attaches him to the boat and send him away with a buoy and a long line.

After that, guide him to the back of the boat, put the ladder on and recover him by the ladder. Off course all crew has to be trained and the one that is overboard should know that they are going to cut the line and send him a buoy.

After those accidents where people died attached to a harness, the lines to attach to the jack-lines started to be much shorter. 10 years ago the standard size was 1.5m, now the German ones have only about a meter and two hooks to be attached in sequence.

Regards

Paulo
02-20-2013 03:33 PM
chef2sail
Re: Re those Team O lifejackets (PFDs)

Quote:
Originally Posted by billyruffn View Post
I was thinking about the design of the Team O lifejacket / PFD while in the shower this morning --- you know, you can do good thinking in the shower!
Anyway, I was trying to figure out how the strap goes from the front of the PFD to the back without getting caught around your neck. If you happen to fall with the strap on the hull side of the boat, it should work as shown in the videos, but if you fall the other way, ie so that the tether goes across your body as the strap is pulled out of the PFD, you could end up with the strap around your neck. That wouldn't be good.

Maybe this is why I wasn't able to find anyone selling these PDFs on the internet. One site promised they would ship to distribution in December, but I don't see anyone offering them for sale yet.
I got a new spinlock PFD like this last year with the harness incorporated with the under the crotch straps.

click in the more info box after opening the link
https://www.spinlock.co.uk/deckvest/suggests/

I think better in the shower as long as I dont sing and scare the water away.
02-20-2013 02:42 PM
billyruffn
Re those Team O lifejackets (PFDs)

I was thinking about the design of the Team O lifejacket / PFD while in the shower this morning --- you know, you can do good thinking in the shower!
Anyway, I was trying to figure out how the strap goes from the front of the PFD to the back without getting caught around your neck. If you happen to fall with the strap on the hull side of the boat, it should work as shown in the videos, but if you fall the other way, ie so that the tether goes across your body as the strap is pulled out of the PFD, you could end up with the strap around your neck. That wouldn't be good.

Maybe this is why I wasn't able to find anyone selling these PDFs on the internet. One site promised they would ship to distribution in December, but I don't see anyone offering them for sale yet.
02-20-2013 12:26 PM
jackdale
Re: MOB Recovery in gale conditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
Jack, If you can bring the boat around by “heaving to”, falling off into a run, and then lifting and luffing back to the MOB – What is the purpose of dousing the headsail? If you miss the pick up on the first pass, you will still have to foot off to gain headway before you can re-start and that puts you in a figure 8 retrieval for your second pass. Help me out here as I’m missing something. (is it by taking down the headsail and elongating the retrieval circle, you are giving yourself more margin and options if you don’t come right on the MOB?
I leave the headsail up for the reasons that you stated. The quick stop takes it down probably to prevent sheets from flailing around.
02-20-2013 11:22 AM
BarryL
Re: MOB Recovery in gale conditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by knuterikt View Post
Interesting to follow the drift of this thread..

The problem addressed in the OP was a man drowning after falling overboard while still clipped on to the boat.

So there was never a situation where getting back to the MOB was a problem.

The reason he died was that he was dragged after the boat with head under water for a while before they started the effort to get him back on board.
It took 16 minute from the MOB was discovered until he was back on board.
From the report http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...LionReport.pdf
Hey,

What isn't clear in the report is the amount of time elapsed between when the skipper went over the side until he was discovered. At 0027 they noticed the genoa slipping into the water and commenced recovery of the sail. At 0036 they noticed a strobe light and recognized that someone was over the side and in the water. At 0038 they issued a mayday and were trying to recover the skipper. By this time, the skipped already appeared lifeless. How long was he in the water before they noticed?

I submit that the tether is what caused him to drown. I think he would have had a better chance of surviving if he had simply fallen overboard. At least he would have floated. A helo had already been dispatched. If he had a PLB or something like that, he stood at least a decent chance of being recovered.

I think the most important lesson is that if you are going to wear a tether, make sure that it's short enough to keep you on the boat.

Barry
02-19-2013 09:26 PM
GeorgeB
Re: MOB Recovery in gale conditions

Jack, If you can bring the boat around by “heaving to”, falling off into a run, and then lifting and luffing back to the MOB – What is the purpose of dousing the headsail? If you miss the pick up on the first pass, you will still have to foot off to gain headway before you can re-start and that puts you in a figure 8 retrieval for your second pass. Help me out here as I’m missing something. (is it by taking down the headsail and elongating the retrieval circle, you are giving yourself more margin and options if you don’t come right on the MOB?
02-19-2013 08:32 PM
jackdale
Re: MOB Recovery in gale conditions

George There are some significant differences

1) In the quick stop, the head sail is dropped
2) There is no second heave-to in the quick stop
3) In the quick stop the pick up is usually on the windward side. I have seen some leeward pick ups.



Your downwind is trickier. All of the techniques are similar.. Get some distance between the MOB and the boat. Come about. Close reach / close hauled back. We then heave-to rather than luff sails.
02-19-2013 08:22 PM
GeorgeB
Re: MOB Recovery in gale conditions

Jack, your diagram is for a “Quick Stop” method? (at least that is what we call it). For beam reaching and above, this is our preferred method. As you know, the boat needs to travel a little bit to get the Lifesling to trail out behind (those of you who think they can throw it out to the MOB, really need to practice with it.) The Quickstop does this and pulls the Lifesling in an arc to better capture the MOB. If you miss the MOB on the first pass, the Lifesling will "lasso" him. Downwind running with a spinnaker is an altogether different animal. In this case, we do a Figure 8 retrieval as we need to get the kite down first before we can go head to wind (though, we have done the maneuver utilizing a “Mexican” take down before). It is pretty scary to be the helmsman with the boat traveling away from the MOB at a high rate of speed while your crew are preparing for a short-handed take down.

It doesn’t matter if you are sailing or motoring – big seas are big seas and you do need to time your fall-off to downwind so you are not beam to the wave face. You do want to be proficient in your helming skills. Doing practice racing starts (and pre-starts) is a good way of gaining confidence in one’s boat handling skills under sail power. From the “what it’s worth department” all of our MOB practice is done under sail and over the past five years I have a perfect score – I will pick you up on the first pass every time.
02-19-2013 08:02 PM
Omatako
Re: MOB Recovery in gale conditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
A couple of things. (OK - more than a couple)

This is from a close reach / close hauled position.
If you're sailing in heavy conditions the reality is you're probably running deep reefs and shortened sails. Surely if you heave to immediately someone falls over the side, it is better just to let the boat get pushed down onto the MOB? Rather than risk crash gybes etc running back to him? Yes I get the cold water scenario and the need for speed but then the MOB should be kitted to withstand the cold as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
BTW - downwind is a whole different story as you have to come about. But we still heave-to at the end.
The picture presented makes more sense to me if you're sailing off the wind - then there is a need to get back upwind and around the windward side of the MOB so that you can drift back onto him (as above)

Anyway this is all semantics, I agree that the best medicine is staying on the boat and I have many times in earlier discussions said that there is no place on my boat for ballet dancers who move around the boat like it was the USS Ronald Regan. On my boat in heavy weather, you don't leave the cockpit if there is no-one else around and when you do, you move around on your hands and knees. Walk, dance, pirouette from point to point and you'll earn yourself a solid rebuke, maybe even a tight slap when you return to the cockpit.

Sorry, a little off the point, yes I suppose crotch straps on harnesses will do some good but staying on the boat is better.
02-19-2013 07:18 PM
jackdale
Re: MOB Recovery in gale conditions

BTW - the number of crew I have had overboard = 0.

I had not read The Lion report in a while. They eased the sheets to slow the boat, what would have happened had they hove-to? Would that have lifted the skipper out of the water? Armchair quarterbacking ....
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