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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Electrical Systems > Alternator wiring issue...
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Thread: Alternator wiring issue... Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-10-2013 10:30 PM
Maine Sail
Re: Alternator wiring issue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Kudos to Maine Sail/CPM - everything delivered as promised, on time, shipped cross-continent and plenty of support. Thanks!!
Faster,

Thanks! Just glad I was able to help you out...
04-10-2013 11:04 AM
Faster
Re: Alternator wiring issue...

Update to my OP..

As mentioned we'd decided to go with a high output alternator, smart regulator and an ACR to manage the two banks.

I was thrilled to be contacted by Maine Sail offering one of his high quality Compass Point Marine custom alternators at a price better price than Balmar, Electromaax and others. I placed the order and a month later we're in business.

The alternator arrived as promised, looks great, and came together with a Balmar MC 614H ready to wire in. The major challenge was finding reasonable locations for the regulator and the ACR. Our battery banks are under the aft berth and space was tight. However in the end the reg went where the isolator used to be, and we found a spot for the ACR as well.

Our club has a good cable crimper for general use and that served well in making up all the cables, and it's all installed and running and looking good. As a bonus, near 30 years of bad wiring, snipped/unused cables,etc - a veritable rats nest - is mostly cleaned up.

Kudos to Maine Sail/CPM - everything delivered as promised, on time, shipped cross-continent and plenty of support. Thanks!!
03-08-2013 03:22 PM
Maine Sail
Re: Alternator wiring issue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanF View Post
One final note on the Sterling and Promariner units, though. They will handle multiple inputs and outputs, and favor the start battery (at least for the Sterling, not sure about the Promariner). So if you're dealing with either two alternators or three or more banks, they make a lot of sense. On the other hand, they haven't been on the market that long, while the Newmars and others have quite a track record.
The ProMariner is a Sterling made unit. As to "favoring the start" battery this is nothing but sales & marketing 101. It is a gimmick. In the time it takes a "start bank" to come up to "combine voltage", after starting an engine, you've really done little to no "recharging" because little to no capacity was used and the bank is still at its lowest levels of "acceptance". A starting bank can come up to combine voltage within seconds of the alternator exciting. Charging first? I challenged Charlie about this on the phone one day and he simply chuckled....

The average marine engine will use about .5Ah or less of capacity to start. Our 44HP engine starts in about 775mS or .75 seconds at an average current of about 280A (averaging the entire .75 seconds). If we call this a 1 seconds start duration it means we use 0.07Ah to start our motor. 280A/60 minutes = 4.66Ah per minute 4.66Ah/60 seconds per minute = 0.07Ah per second of cranking.. I recognize that not all motors fire up like ours does, so even if the start duration was 10 seconds, that's a LOT of cranking, we are still at just 0.7Ah removed from the battery to start a motor with an average starter current of 280A... So why on Earth do we want to "prioritize" replenishing less than 1Ah of use from a 70 - 100Ah battery... Marketing!!!!

BTW that data on our motor comes from a 27F day with an actual battery case temperature of 32F. Most boaters are not starting at those temps.

Charlie Sterling convinced people, who generally don't understand electrics, it was "necessary" to charge the start bank "first".. He did this to sell them "differentiated" products. It is marketing 101 and has virtually zero useful benefit IMHO.

The Sterling products have been in Europe for years and have a good track record and seem to be reliable. Charlie's marketing tactics however, are often called into question.

The best description for the "Zero Volt Drop Isolators" is that they are a "smart combiner"... Nothing wrong with them just one way to market to people. I much prefer to charge the house first and feed all charges sources directly there then let a combiner, Echo, Duo or other B2B charger do the rest.

Anything that uncombines/shuts off or disconnects the batteries, based on voltage, such as an Echo Charger, Duo Charger, ACR's, VSR's Zero Volt Drop Isolators, Sterling Battery to Battery chargers etc. are all technically "battery isolators" in that they isolate the batteries when no charge sources are present and they charge them when charge sources are present. The term isolator got a bad wrap from diodes but isolating the batteries automatically is still a great and very useful feature.

The Echo Charger, Blue Sea ACR's and Yandina Combiners are some of the most reliable pieces of equipment I've come across in the marine environment. I have Echo's and Combiners out there with 15,000+ operational hours of charging or combined charge states.. I even have a number of customers who have Heart Interface Echo Chargers going back well into the 90's that have been charging for 15+/- years.. Yandina actually backs their combiners with a lifetime unconditional warranty.
03-08-2013 02:36 PM
AlanF
Re: Alternator wiring issue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Alan, I could sell you a zero voltage drop isolator for five bucks. It is called a KNIFE SWITCH.
Well, the same could be said for any relay. But I don't want to climb in the engine bay and flip a knife switch every time I start the engine, either. Nor would I want to manually disconnect my batteries when appropriate. So yes, your solution would be quite viable but mildly impractical.

You are both correct in that the "isolators" are not "diode isolators", and that the term "combiner" is used in the trades to differentiate the two. And differentiated they should be! But "isolator" is still commonly used, often by folks less familiar with the nuances, to identify a gadget to keep the banks separated. If it wasn't for the diode legacy, it would be quite descriptive. Magnum calls their device a combiner, but describes it as a "combiner/isolator". Perhaps that's the best approach. But to prefix it with a descriptor, while bulky, isn't out of the park, either.

But going back to my original comment, since Maine Sail had suggested a relay, and I'd mentioned the "zero-volt drop isolators", that was kind of redundant on my part, other than the different name, in this two-bank case.

One final note on the Sterling and Promariner units, though. They will handle multiple inputs and outputs, and favor the start battery (at least for the Sterling, not sure about the Promariner). So if you're dealing with either two alternators or three or more banks, they make a lot of sense. On the other hand, they haven't been on the market that long, while the Newmars and others have quite a track record.
03-08-2013 10:34 AM
hellosailor
Re: Alternator wiring issue...

Alan, I could sell you a zero voltage drop isolator for five bucks. It is called a KNIFE SWITCH.

But no one would call that an isolator, which is more properly called a diode isolator.

In order to avoid confusion about what an isolator is or isn't, i would suggest using whatever proper name it has and in the unlikely event that the merchant has tried to simply call it an "isolator"...don't use that term by itself.

Yandina/West Marine always called their product a COMBINER and that ensures there is no confusion over it. Similarly the Echo Charger has its own unique name.

Zero voltage drop isolator? How many knife switches do you want? (G)
03-08-2013 07:24 AM
Maine Sail
Re: Alternator wiring issue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanF View Post
Excellent advice, and isolators for the most part are to be tossed in the trash. But just for the record there are some zero volt drop ones - Sterling makes some and I think ProMariner does as well, and I'm sure others. But in the end, Maine Sail's echo or batt-to-batt charger solution is great.
Both of those products are actually voltage sensitive relays not traditional diode isolators...
03-08-2013 04:57 AM
AlanF
Re: Alternator wiring issue...

Excellent advice, and isolators for the most part are to be tossed in the trash. But just for the record there are some zero volt drop ones - Sterling makes some and I think ProMariner does as well, and I'm sure others. But in the end, Maine Sail's echo or batt-to-batt charger solution is great.

My boat came with a charging system that included a manual failover system that is basically just an adjustable pot that I can switch to in case the alternator regulator fails. As it turns out, I use it quite often, but not because of failure. I have it set for around 30 amps, and switch to it when upping anchor or maneuvering at low speed, when I don't want to load down the engine with the full 120 amps. Very handy.
03-01-2013 07:23 PM
Faster
Re: Alternator wiring issue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Faster, the problem with a simple diode isolator is that is cuts the output voltage by about 1/2 volt. And unless a sense wire has been run to accomodate that...Sure, that would make your alternator "underperform" significantly.

It may or may not be worth putting any money into figuring out what was done to your alternator but one of the "twelve volt" books has over a hundred alternator diagrams in it, you should be able to find one for your Bosch, open it up, and see if anything is missing or altered internally. Or, just order a higher capacity one and make a clean start.

If you do keep it, be generous with a labelmaker and draw up a schematic once you figure it out.
Thanks HS, the decision has been made, a clean start it will be- after all what's another boat buck here and there.....
03-01-2013 07:03 PM
hellosailor
Re: Alternator wiring issue...

Faster, the problem with a simple diode isolator is that is cuts the output voltage by about 1/2 volt. And unless a sense wire has been run to accomodate that...Sure, that would make your alternator "underperform" significantly.

It may or may not be worth putting any money into figuring out what was done to your alternator but one of the "twelve volt" books has over a hundred alternator diagrams in it, you should be able to find one for your Bosch, open it up, and see if anything is missing or altered internally. Or, just order a higher capacity one and make a clean start.

If you do keep it, be generous with a labelmaker and draw up a schematic once you figure it out.
03-01-2013 03:11 PM
Maine Sail
Re: Alternator wiring issue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVTatia View Post
Question if I may - is this a switch? Is there an alternative to this? There is a "slight" risk that this could be left off and then you start the engine and fry the alt.
Perhaps having a keyed switch that only turns on with the engine ignition key? I'm getting old ye know...
Starting the engine with no load rarely leads to blown diodes because the regulator has time to sense there is no voltage/load. It is when the alt is pumping out fierce current and you suddenly cut the load where the diodes most often fry.

If you remember to turn off all battery switches when working on the engine then you should be able to remember to switch them all back on.
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