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Thread: Different Gun Question Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-26-2013 05:20 PM
dabnis
Re: Different Gun Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Guys, yes, my post clearly mentioned its modification. Its also has a trigger job. It is my Father's, not mine. He was a competitive pistol shooter and instructor years back.

The point I was making was that the OP could not tell the difference and a revolver might be vulnerable. The Glock will not be. I have heard of people lightening the Glock trigger, but never removing the firing pin safety.

I find the full pull on the Glock for each round to be much safer than semi-autos that have a heavy double action pull and then an extraordinarily light single action pull after that, ie the P226. While the first will keep you from shooting yourself in the foot, the rest are near hair triggers.

If you want a pistol with a heavy pull, try the Walther PPK. I have an original, made in Germany. Must be at least 20 lbs on double action and still 10 on single after that. James Bond must have had some grip.
M,

Missed that, I guess I was focused on this:

"Originally Posted by Minnewaska
Pretty good, but not fool proof. On many revolvers, even with the hammer down, you can hit it sufficiently from behind to fire a round. It may take a bit, like dropping it or having something heavy hit it. Like a fool would do."

On trigger pull, a friend bought his wife a Smith & Wesson J Frame double action only, no external hammer, in .38 Special caliber. As with small, light guns, kind of nasty to shoot. The trigger pull, for safety reasons, I guess, was so heavy she could just barely pull it through. I suggested he return it to have the pull reduced somewhat, but he said "it will loosen up in time" to which I said "maybe in 10,000 rounds or so"

Small Frame (J) - Smith & Wesson

Paul T
02-26-2013 04:40 PM
Minnewaska
Re: Different Gun Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
.....My Father's Smith & Wesson 357 mag Combat Model 19, for example, does not have the safety mentioned. It was made in the 60s and re-worked for competition to boot......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinook View Post
....I happen to know the model 19 fairly well and know for certain that it came from the factory with the block in place.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by dabnis View Post
.....As Shinook suggested, it appears yours may have been modified, damaged or incorrectly re-assembled.......
Guys, yes, my post clearly mentioned its modification. Its also has a trigger job. It is my Father's, not mine. He was a competitive pistol shooter and instructor years back.

The point I was making was that the OP could not tell the difference and a revolver might be vulnerable. The Glock will not be. I have heard of people lightening the Glock trigger, but never removing the firing pin safety.

I find the full pull on the Glock for each round to be much safer than semi-autos that have a heavy double action pull and then an extraordinarily light single action pull after that, ie the P226. While the first will keep you from shooting yourself in the foot, the rest are near hair triggers.

If you want a pistol with a heavy pull, try the Walther PPK. I have an original, made in Germany. Must be at least 20 lbs on double action and still 10 on single after that. James Bond must have had some grip.
02-26-2013 02:40 PM
dabnis
Re: Different Gun Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I was only trying to address the OPs original basic understanding of safety. Not possible for a novice to draw the distinction between two revolvers lying on a table to know which has an internal safety and which does not. All Glocks have it.

My Father's Smith & Wesson 357 mag Combat Model 19, for example, does not have the safety mentioned. It was made in the 60s and re-worked for competition to boot.

Best to assume, if the OP finds that guest's pistol aboard, that a revolver can be accidentally fired more easily than a Glock can. That was my only point. Agree with all the technical distinctions mentioned above.
I have two Model 19's, same as yours, purchased new in 1955 and 1968. Neither can let the hammer forward enough to contact the primer unless the trigger is pulled back all the way and held there. As Shinook suggested, it appears yours may have been modified, damaged or incorrectly re-assembled.
Not to beat a dead horse, but I suggest you return the gun to Smith & Wesson for inspection:

FAQs - Smith & Wesson

FWIW, Paul T
02-26-2013 10:05 AM
hellosailor
Re: Different Gun Question

Well, like their page says, it is ideal if your purpose is minimal bulk and maximum concealment. Which should mean professional undercover operators only. Did you notice the product is endorsed by the Vienna Boys Choir? (G)

If you ask a gunsmith to stiffen the trigger on a Glock and he doesn't reply "Oh, you want an NYPD trigger job?" he's either very new, or been in the woods too long. It was a MAJOR argument, lawsuit too as I recall, with NYPD saying Glocks were defective and Glock responding that no one else on the planet had that problem, the gun simply couldn't fire without a finger on the trigger.
02-26-2013 09:53 AM
Shinook
Re: Different Gun Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Shinook, Glock's original light trigger pull resulted in a major problem when the NYPD adopted Glocks. In the first year of issue, something like 9 NYPD officers shot themselves in the foot while drawing their new Glocks. Literally.

The eventual outcome was that NYPD decided to retrain the entire force to remind them to keep their damned fingers off the trigger while drawing the weapon. And, Glock came out with the "NYPD trigger job", a much higher trigger pressure is required when that option is ordered.
I've had some friends that replaced the stock trigger spring with one that brings the trigger pull closer to 10lbs for that same reason.

While I don't know the history of NYPD, I know around the time that Glock came around, police departments were looking for a reliable revolver replacement and chose Glock. I hadn't thought about it before, but I can see how this would be problematic, because with most of the old DA revolvers, you can get away with having your finger close to the trigger, but with the more sensitive Glock (or most semi autos period) trigger, that'll get you in trouble real fast. It's bad practice to begin with, but going from a ~12lb trigger to ~5lbs is a big difference.

I've just known too many people that have had close misfires with Glocks, granted they were all their own fault, but I couldn't bring myself to carry something that sensitive around. Mostly because I couldn't use a full sized holster, so I figured a misfire was inevitable.

Wanna know something scary? People use this with Glocks:

Clipdraw… For Secure Carry Without a Holster
02-26-2013 09:44 AM
hellosailor
Re: Different Gun Question

Shinook, Glock's original light trigger pull resulted in a major problem when the NYPD adopted Glocks. In the first year of issue, something like 9 NYPD officers shot themselves in the foot while drawing their new Glocks. Literally.

The eventual outcome was that NYPD decided to retrain the entire force to remind them to keep their damned fingers off the trigger while drawing the weapon. And, Glock came out with the "NYPD trigger job", a much higher trigger pressure is required when that option is ordered.

To the enduring and well-earned national embarrassment of the NYPD, who still haven't got a shining reputation for firearms training or discipline.

Last I heard the NYPD trigger option was still available, either from Glock or a local gunsmith.

Which I guess comes back to David's original question, i.e. even with some type of class, you never really know what you're picking up if you pick up a strange weapon. But if I've got a simple repair to do, I'd prefer my own screwdriver (pocketknife, multitool) to a strange one, too.
02-26-2013 09:17 AM
Shinook
Re: Different Gun Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
My Father's Smith & Wesson 357 mag Combat Model 19, for example, does not have the safety mentioned. It was made in the 60s and re-worked for competition to boot
You should not be able to push the hammer forward on that gun, if you can then it's missing the safety component I mentioned before. It's possible to disassemble the gun and leave it out when you reassemble it, so it may have gotten lost over time, but virtually every S&W in the past 70 years has had the hammer block in place.

I happen to know the model 19 fairly well and know for certain that it came from the factory with the block in place. If you are able to push the hammer forward, it's malfunctioning. That is not normal behavior.

Since I've said before you shouldn't believe me, here is a diagram:

http://www.urban-armory.com/cart/blu...s/swes_m19.gif

Part # 5084, on the lower right.

The only reason I'm so emphatic on this is because if you can push the hammer forward on a revolver, the gun is unsafe and should be taken to be repaired. This presents a substantial safety hazard and most revolvers made in recent times have functionality to prevent this from happening. I've handled one that someone removed the safety from and the amount of pressure it took to move the hammer forward was not that significant, I could easily see how someone could push it forward and activate the round in the chamber. These guns were specifically designed not to do this and starting many years ago (I don't know the date exactly, but pre-WWII), S&W incorporated the hammer block to prevent misfires.

Anyway, take it for what it's worth. I personally wouldn't handle the gun, loaded or not, and what you mentioned is one of the several things I look for when buying a revolver.
02-26-2013 06:10 AM
Minnewaska
Re: Different Gun Question

I was only trying to address the OPs original basic understanding of safety. Not possible for a novice to draw the distinction between two revolvers lying on a table to know which has an internal safety and which does not. All Glocks have it.

My Father's Smith & Wesson 357 mag Combat Model 19, for example, does not have the safety mentioned. It was made in the 60s and re-worked for competition to boot.

Best to assume, if the OP finds that guest's pistol aboard, that a revolver can be accidentally fired more easily than a Glock can. That was my only point. Agree with all the technical distinctions mentioned above.
02-26-2013 01:31 AM
Shinook
Re: Different Gun Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Pretty good, but not fool proof. On many revolvers, even with the hammer down, you can hit it sufficiently from behind to fire a round. It may take a bit, like dropping it or having something heavy hit it. Like a fool would do.
That's not entirely accurate. There was a period of time, many years ago, where this was true, but with virtually any revolver made in the past 30 years, there is a safety mechanism that requires the trigger to be pulled for the firing pin to protrude beyond the shield. If you disassemble one, you'll see a small metal piece hooked to the trigger that slides up and down in front of the hammer, this is the mechanism and it's very effective. You'd have to break the piece or bend the hammer to get it to strike the primer.

I carry a revolver for this very reason. I can trust it not to go off on me. I tried carrying semi-autos for a while, but I couldn't find one that worked for me that I wasn't always afraid it was going to misfire and put a hole in me or my clothes.

While I'm a huge Glock fan, you need a full size holster since the trigger pull is so light. It's also worth pointing out that most semi-autos today have the same firing pin safety mechanism that Glocks have.
02-25-2013 10:15 PM
jobberone
Re: Different Gun Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by swampcreek View Post
I really have to disagree with that. I would not allow that behavior in my presence or with any of my guns (Whoops I forgot, I have no guns, I sold them all for incense, candles and love beads...nothing to see here Big Brother). Unless one is going to shoot or the need to shoot could arise very quickly there is no need to have your finger in the trigger guard. Placing your finger along the outside and top of the trigger guard is called "indexing", that is the proper place for your trigger finger (or index finger) with a loaded gun. Finger on the trigger only if you intend to fire or simulate fire with an empty gun.
You need to reread my posts.
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