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Interesting Sailboats

3M views 7K replies 205 participants last post by  tdw 
#1 · (Edited)
Sirius 32, Sirius 35

THE OBJECT OF THIS THREAD:

Interesting sailboats in production and available on the new boat market (only boats with modern designs, meaning that the boats still in production but made with old designs are out). Recent designs out of production are also admissible.

Modern boat designs and modern one off, if interesting.

Classical boats and traditional boats.

Small cruisers (less than 35ft)

Seezunge 27ft: PG1-PT9

Hanse 325: PG19-PT185;

Presto 30 : 33-326; 33-327; 34-331; 34-333; 55-543; 55-544;

Tess Yachts: 37-366; 38-373;

Tess 28 Magnum: 37-369; 38-371;

Delphia 28: 38-373;

Vancouver 27/28 : 42-412; 72-717;

Cruisers between 35ft and 49ft


Catalina 355 : 31-306;

RM sailboats: PG5-PT41; 5-42

RM1050: PG5-PT46; 5-47; 5-48;

RM 1060: PG8-PT77; 8-78; 8-79; 8-80; 9-81; 30-295; 40-400; 79-786;

RM 1200: PG9-PT84; 9-85; 19-184; 20-191; 20-192; 41-404; 42-414; 42-418; 43-425; 43-426; 69-688;

RM 1350: PG9-PT82; 55-549; 95-943;

Morris Yachts: PG7-PT61

Bavaria 36: PG19-PT188; 19-190; 20-196;

Bavaria 40: PG10-PT95; 28-278; 29-281; 29-282; 29-283; 29-286; 32-316; 36-356; 51-502; 51-507; 52-518; 53-527; 53-532;

Bavaria 40s: 69-685; 78-775;

Bavaria 45: PG10-PT96; 19-190;

Rustler Yachts: PG11-PT104;

Jeanneau 409: PG11-PT103: 11-106; 30-298; 30-299; 36-356; 51-502; 51-504; 51-505; 51-509; 52-513; 52-514; 52-515; 52-516; 53-527; 54-532; 57-564; 57-570; 58-571; 58-580; 59-581; 59-583; 59-585; 62-614; 74-739; 91-906;

Jeanneau 439: 40-396; 40-397; 59-584; 59-585; 96-956;

Hanse Yachts: 16-154; 16-156; 16-158;

Hanse 400: 81-804;

Bluewater cruising yachts: 21-206

Beneteau Oceanis 37 : 31-306; 31-308; 31-309; 32-314; 55-541;

XC 38: 36-356; 96-954;

Diva 38: 39-386;

Diva 35: 40-391;

Dufour 405: 62-614;

Defline 43: 63-622

Walkabout 43: 93-923; 93-925; 93-927;

Small performance cruisers (less than 35ft)


Performance 32ft test: 29-87;

Sun Fast 3200: PG4-PT33; 4-34; 4-36; 30-293;

Elan 210: 70-691; 70-696; 78-779; 79-781;

Elan 310: PC7-PT64; 7-69; 8-71; 36-356; 41-408;

Quest 33: PG7-PT62

Olea 32: 25-243; 25-245;

First 27.7: 38-373; 38-380; 39-382;

First 30: 30-295; 39-356; 41-408; 55-545; 55-546;

Comet 26: 34-340; 35-345; 35-350; 36-353;

Pacer 30: 36-357;

Django 7.7: 40-399;

Vivace/Evosion 34: 45-442; 45-446; 45-445; 45-446; 45-447; 45-448; 45-449; 45-450; 46-458; 46-460;

Finn Flyer 34: 46-451; 46-453; 60-593;

Salona 34: 46-457;

Heol 7.4: 63-621; 63-622;

Azuree 33: 87-867; 91-902; 91-904;

JPK 10.10: 88-877 ; 88-880; 89-883;

Performance cruisers (between 35ft and 49ft)

Pogo 10.50: PG2-PT20; 3-27; 3-28; 3-30; 4-35; 5-50; 6-51; 6-52; 6-60; 11-101; 11-107; 11-110; 43-425; 44-440; 87-861; 87-867;

Pogo 12.50: PG13-PT125; 20-198; 20-199; 22-214; 27-264; 27-265; 27-269; 32-317; 32-319; 43-425; 43-426; 43-428; 44-432; 44-437; 44-439; 55-546; 55-547; 82-812; 84-831; 87-870;

Este 40: 89-890; 90-893; 90-899;

A35: PG5-PT42; 5-44; 66-660;

A40RC: 92-914;

Hammerhead 35: 64-645

Opium 39: PG5-PT42; 9-85; 9-89; 13-125; 22-220; 22-221; 43-426; 55-547; 86-857;

Aerodyne 35: PG7-PT62

Elan 350: PG7-PT64; 13-24; 13-126; 13-127; 13-128; 14-132; 18-178; 26-255; 36-356; 40-398; 41-405; 57-564; 59-589; 60-591; 72-711; 73-724; 74-738;

Elan 380: 23-223; 25-249; 26-256; 40-398; 59-589; 97-962;

Elan 410: 32-316; 79-784;

JPK 110: PG9-PT85; 10-91

Olea 44: PG10-PT100; 27-268;

Olea Yachts: 25-247;

Dufour 40e: Pg13-Pt125; 32-316; 55-547; 56-558; 56-559; 57-561; 57-562; 57-563; 59-586; 59-588,

Salona 37: 36-359; 41-406;

Salona 41: PG15-PT141; 15-145; 32-316; 36-356; 40-398; 54-538; 57-569; 78-778; 80-796; 80-798; 97-965;

Salona 42: PG15-PT145; 36-359; 40-398; 93-929; 94-932;

Cigale 16: PG15-PT148; 16-152; 17-161; 55-549; 63-625;

Cigale 14: PG17-PT163; 55-549;

Santa Cruz 43: PG17-PT169

Sydney Yachts: PG18-PT171; 18-175;

Sydney GTS 37: 43-423;

Sydney GTS 43: PG18-PT173;

Winner 12.20: PG20-193;

First 40: 31-304; 32-313; 32-316; 35-344; 36-354; 55-546; 55-547;

First 35: 36-356

Dehler 41: 30-296;

Dehler 44: 79-785;

Dehler 45: 36-356; 79-785;

Luffe 40.04: 30-300; 31-301; 31-303;

XP 38: 56-533; 56-544; 56-555; 67-622;

XP 44: 33-325;

Pacer 430: 36-357;

Pacer 376: 36-357; 66-652; 69-683;

Faurby 424: 36-360; 37-361; 37-363; 37-365;

Comfortina 39: 40-395;

J 133: 43-426; 63-620

J 111: 100-993;

Maxi 11: 99-982;

Arcona yachts: 46-456;

Arcona 410: 47-467; 47-468; 47-469; 48-471;

Arcona 430: 48-472;

Arcona 460: 50-495

Finngulf yachts: 46-456;

Varianta 44: 60-594; 60-595; 60-596; 60-597; 60-598; 64-639;

Imagine 53: 63-628;

Zou 40.2: 63-620

Ker 39: 68-676;

Finn-Flyer 42: 77-762;

Azuree 40: 85-842;

Loft 40: 85-848; 85-852;

Vivace 35: 90-895;

Sailing boats over 49ft

Zeydon 60 : PG 12-119;

JP 54: PG18-PT172;

Salona 60: 70-695;

Stadships: PG20-PT193; 20-195;

Pogo 50: 32-318; 32-319;

X-50: 54-537;

Murtic 52: 54-537;

Decksaloons and pilot house sailing boats

Sirius 32: PG1-PT1

Sirius 35: PG1-PT1; 1-10; 2-18; 50-491; 50-492; 60-559; 60-599;

Sirius 31: PG1-PT5; 2-17; 36-356;

Regina 35: 48-478;

Regina 40: PG11-PT104; 49-481; 49-483;

Southerly yachts: PG11-PT104;

Luffe 43DS: PG12-PT111; 12-115; 50-494;

Noordkaper 40: PG14-pt139;

Noordkaper yachts: PG16-PT155

Nordship 36: 30-297; 49-482;

Nordship 38: 49-482; 49-490;

Paulo's pilot house I: 38-376; 39-381; 39-383; 39-384;

Paulo's pilot house II: 69-682

Lyman & Morse 45: 38-379;

CR 38DS: 48-477; 48-478;

CR 40DS: 48-476; 48-478; 48-479; 50-494; 50-496; 50-497; 50-498;

Arcona 40DS: 50-494;

Racers

Figaro 2:pG4-PT36; 4-37; 5-42; 6-52; 6-53; 6-55; 6-56

VOR 70: PG16-PT160; 17-187

Farr 400: 67-661

Soto 40: 96-952;

Lifting keel/centerboarder

Southerly yachts: PG11-PT104;

Allures 45: PG10-PT93; 100-996;

Allures yachts: 25-248;

OVNI 425: 23-228;

OVNI 395 : 68-679; 69-690;

J 108: 67-661

Atlantic 43: 68-67

Boreal 44: 97-970; 98-974;

Multihulls till 34ft

Several Trimarans: 28-273;

Multihulls with 34ft and over

Dragonfly yachts: 26-257;

Dragonfly 35: 26-258; 27-261; 27-262;

Dragonfly 1200: 56-551;

Corsair 37: 28-276;

Farrier 39: 28-277;

Challenge 37: 28-278

Hammerhead 34: 29-385;

Hammerhead 54: 29-288; 30-292;

Trimax 10.80: 29-285;

Sig 45: 54-534; 54-539; 54-540;

Gunboat: 56-551

Fusion: 56-551;

Outremer: 56-551;

Tournier: 56-511;

Classical and Traditional boats

Jclass boats: 54-537;

Tofinou 12: 71-703;

Folck boat: 73-727;

Puffin Yachts: PG14-PT135; 14-138; 16-155;

Bestwind 50: PG12-PT116; 14-123;

Bestevaer 53: PG12-PT116;

Bestevaer yachts: PG16-PT155

Cape George 36: 41-410; 42-412;

Marieholm 33 : 42-412;

This list is not actualized. Please use the advanced search engine of the thread with the name of the model and builder. It works, most of the time.

(actualized till PG100) and it will be no more because that gives a lot of work (500 pages now).

Instead I am actualizing the titles and with the right title the thread search engine (not the one on the top of the page bit the one much below that says search thread) on its advanced option works quite well.

Hello,

Melrna posts on Miami Boat show and the comments of Smackdady about the interest of that thread lead me to think that perhaps I could share more information about sailboats I know and find interesting.

I am interested in boat design (interior and sailing performance) and I go each year at least to one of the main European Boat shows and that means basically Dusseldorf, Paris or Hamburg. On these shows you have the opportunity not only to visit the boats of the main and medium size builders but you have also the opportunity to visit the boats of small and sometime family shipyards.

Normally they build very good sailboats and sometimes they have been doing that for decades. The boats are hugely appreciated by their faithful customers but because they don't advertise their boats and there are very few on the used boat market, they pass unnoticed by the majority of the sail community.

The visit to these boats is a very rewarding experience because they are made with passion by true boat lovers and because when you talk to the guy that is on the boat, you are not talking with a dealer, that many times doesn't know much about boats, but with the builder, or the designer.

Even if you are not a buyer they will have real pleasure in talking with someone that really appreciates and understands their work. Those guys really believe in what they are doing and they do it the best way they can, no matter the cost. In a word, they are in love with what they are doing.
Of course, these boats have to be expensive.

This thread will be mainly about these boats, as a way of letting you know about these gems. Let's see if you are interested. I will not post much. If you want to know more you have just to participate and make questions.

The first one it will be the "Sirius". I have had the pleasure to visit several times their boats and to talk with the builders (father and son).

These boats have the best interiors you can find, or at least that I have seen. Not only the quality, but the design and ergonomy are fantastic. You really won't believe you are in a 32ft boat. Just incredible and amazing; Have a look at it:

Sirius-Werft Plön | Forecabin | 32 DS for 2 forecabin
Sirius-Werft Plön | Owner´s cabin | 32 DS 4-berth comfort owner´s cabin
Sirius-Werft Plön | Workshop | 32 DS for 2 workshop

Now that the son is in charge they have modernized the outside look of the new boats, they look fantastic not only inside but also outside. The boats sail well and they have clients as far as Japan.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Versions of decks house | You have the choice

Another interesting point is the way they develop new boats. They work with the clients to collect suggestions on the shape and design of the boats. A truly interesting affair, between passionate clients and passionate builders.

Sirius-Werft Plön | 35 DS | Philosophy

Take a good look at their interesting site and if you find the boat interesting, please let me know, I can add some information.

Sirius-Werft Plön | english | Welcome at website of Sirius-Werft Plön

Regards

Paulo
 
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#3,711 · (Edited)
Transat Bretagne-Martinique

Transat Bretagne Martinique 2013

In 12 hours, along the night, most of those solo sailors will be sailing their small 35ft light sailboats close upwind in a bad sea with winds over 30K. What a night:rolleyes: Wish them all luck.

What a race:D

Yann Eliès (Groupe Quéguiner - Leucémie Espoir): "I'm a little tense. It will be pretty tough, that's for sure. It is important to immediately get into the race and not delay. You need to get into a good rhythm because as soon as you go out through the bottleneck at the mouth to Brest harbour, you'll be into a large sea. There won't be any time to get our sea legs. The problem is that there is a fairly complex weather system. It will be quite stormy and we must be dynamic and opportunistic from the outset, consider this early part of the race like a leg of the Solitaire du Figaro Eric Bompard cashmere."

Fred Duthil (Sepalumic): "It will be necessary to push hard from the outset especially as there is a choice between heading west or going south to bypass the anticyclone and that is not so simple today. We'll have to make a decision quickly thought, as soon as tonight maybe. I think we'll be heading out into 35 knot gusts, so we will be directly into it and it will be time to find out if you can face it for the next ten days or not. The route is less complicated further on as we head down the eastern side of the high, not far from the Canary Islands."


and a girl, on his first Transat, a Norwegian:

Kristin Songe-Moller (Sponsor Me): "Going into my first transatlantic race, the weather is complicated and hard and is not easy to understand. This week, it felt like I was running around in all directions, unable to do whatever I wanted to finish. I am preparing myself for a hard few days and I'm feeling a lot of stress because my goal is to really get to the finish. My boat is not as well prepared as the favourites and my sails are already worn, so I have to protect them for as long as possible. It would be catastrophic for me not to make it to Fort-de-France. I have put all my savings into taking part in this race. I cannot imagine giving up."

Figaro Transat Bretagne-Martinique 2013 start | The Daily Sail
 
#3,754 ·
Re: Transat Bretagne-Martinique

Transat Bretagne Martinique 2013

and a girl, on his firs Transat, a Norwegian:

Kristin Songe-Moller (Sponsor Me): "Going into my first transatlantic race, the weather is complicated and hard and is not easy to understand. This week, it felt like I was running around in all directions, unable to do whatever I wanted to finish. I am preparing myself for a hard few days and I'm feeling a lot of stress because my goal is to really get to the finish. My boat is not as well prepared as the favourites and my sails are already worn, so I have to protect them for as long as possible. It would be catastrophic for me not to make it to Fort-de-France. I have put all my savings into taking part in this race. I cannot imagine giving up."

Figaro Transat Bretagne-Martinique 2013 start | The Daily Sail
Six days into the race Kristin lost the mast.
She managed to rig a jury rig and she is now sailing towards Portugal.
 
#3,712 · (Edited)
Elan 400

The boat looked good and it seems Rob Humphreys got it right. The boat was tested in very demanding conditions by Yacht magazine and they say:

.. "The test shows that in strong winds the average-equipped boat with two rudders has a considerable performance potential and a very balanced sailing performance."

very German:D, but also very concise.

I have already posted about the boat and said that the interior looked better than on the first photos. The only thing I don't like is a smaller galley than average and specially the fact that on the 2 cabin version they didn't took the possibility to increase it. A pity on a boat that is a very interesting one and could be a better cruising boat if that was taken into account.



















 
#3,713 · (Edited)
America's Cup

Great images of Oracle flying low, foiling at 40K:



Beautiful but that landing from 40K is quite violent and the boat almost dig a floater on the water. I wonder what would happen if that landing was on a wave? It would be a lot more violent for sure and that floater would be able to bring the boat up or the speed would push it down?. These are boats to sail out of protected waters and the rules (of I am not mistaken) talk about 30k as acceptable boundaries to sail. They seem pretty fragile to me and I never saw them sailing out of flat waters. Very curious about all this;)
 
#3,714 · (Edited)
Allures 39.9 Hull No. 1

I am not allowed to post linline pictures yet, so hopefully a couple attached will display.

This is Allures 39.9 Hull Number One in the water for the first time.

Its at the top of my list for next boat as I need the shallow draft (3.48 feet), for Chesapeake and Bahamas sailing and I must have aluminum hull this time around.
 

Attachments

#3,715 · (Edited)
Re: Allures 39.9 Hull No. 1

I am not allowed to post linline pictures yet, so hopefully a couple attached will display.

This is Allures 39.9 Hull Number One in the water for the first time.

And,

Some design sketches....

Its at the top of my list for next boat as I need the shallow draft (3.48 feet), for Chesapeake and Bahamas sailing and I must have aluminum hull this time around.
Welcome to sailnet and particularly to this thread. Yes the Allures 39.9 will be a great boat to sail the Bahamas. The 40 was already great and this one is just a bit better and if the quality of the interior I saw on the 45 is maintained on this boat, it would not have only a better sailing performance but it would be also a great value for the money. I was really impressed with the quality and price of the 45 I saw in Dusseldorf.





As you probably know I have already posted about the Allures 39:

and continuing talking about voyage boats, Allures announced in the Paris boat show the Allures 39.9 that is going to replace the 40 that was a very successful boat and I bet this one is even more. The design is a knock out;)

Absolutely beautiful, considering that is much more difficult to design a good looking 40ft boat than a 45, this boat is even more beautiful than the 45.

This is a Berret/Racopeau design and it is not only the boat that looks gorgeous the hull design seems great too as well as the interior. It seems that I am too enthusiastic about this boat, but what can I say, I love the design:D

The dimensions seem also correct to me. This is a beamy boat to take advantage of hull stability (4.15m) it will go probably well upwind with a centerboard with a draft of 2.75m. That's huge for a 40ft. The boat will have also a good AVS and a good overall stability, since they made the deck in composite to put the weight down and have a good B/D ratio (39%).

The boat is a bit on the heavy side (10 900kg) but on small centerboarders with all the ballast inside a very light boat don't seem a good idea to me so even the weight seems right to me. Even so the boat weights less than the also new Halberg Rassy 412.






























...
Regards

Paulo
 
#3,716 ·
Re: Allures 39.9

Hi - we're thinking the 39.9 might be the long term boat for us too; ticks so many important boxes and very competitive pricing (ready to sail but minus some desirable options is half the price of what HR are quoting for their "fully loaded plus" demo 412 :eek: Not sure about the way they like to use plastic teak decking though. Looking forward to a sail on their demo boat this summer.

Just looking back at the discussion on Malo - the surprise for me is that they're still screwing & plugging the teak decks. That's crazy - if you need a teak veneer deck why drill 1,000+ holes in a brand new waterproof hull:confused: - other premium manufacturers are gluing with good results these days.

cheers
 
#3,717 ·
Re: Allures 39.9

Hi - we're thinking the 39.9 might be the long term boat for us too; ticks so many important boxes and very competitive pricing (ready to sail but minus some desirable options is half the price of what HR are quoting for their "fully loaded plus" demo 412 :eek:
I was pleasently surprised by the quote I was given as well, when I had in my mind Garcia, French Labor costs etc.

At twice the price, I would custom build and get exactly what I want for that much...

Not sure about the way they like to use plastic teak decking though. Looking forward to a sail on their demo boat this summer.
I will have to see this plastic stuff in person to make a sound judgment... and talk to Owners with experience of the stuff. Sounds terrible on its surface, but maybe it has redeeming qualities.
 
#3,718 ·
Crassius and sapwraia,

Do you know how long the waiting list is for the Allures until building would begin if you ordered one? I had a 6 month wait on our Boreal until building began then another 18 months before completion.

You are right about the price when you look at what you get. I do not know why anyone would pay the price for the HR when there are better built boats for almost half the cost. HR's are good boats but way over rated to many.

Cheers
 
#3,722 ·
Crassius and sapwraia,

Do you know how long the waiting list is for the Allures until building would begin if you ordered one? I had a 6 month wait on our Boreal until building began then another 18 months before completion.

Cheers
I haven't checked in the last couple of months but was told that no more build slots for 2013, so guess it's delivery for summer 2015 - which probably suits our timetable anyway.

cheers
 
#3,721 · (Edited)
Transat Bretagne-Martinique

I had said that they would have a rough night, specially the ones more to the North. well... This was sent by Erwan Tabarly (Armor Lux - Comptoir de la Mer) at 10. 53 last night with the weather worsening:

"We make way, painfully, but we are sailing. This is almost a storm! There are plenty of sea, wind, 35 knots average, strong gusts, I expect to have more in the coming hours, the boat moves violently, it is very humid outside, it is difficult to steer. From time to time waves cross the cockpit and it can be dangerous. I am inside until it passes. I was very very conservative yesterday, I anticipated and reefed early to have the time to have the right amount of sail. I expect some more hours with stronger winds. I think it's not bad right now. With 5-6 knots more, I do not know what it will happen, we'll see."

The weather report gives gusting to 50/55K and the winds have been consistently stronger than what was forecast.

Two of the favorites have retired with the sails seriously damaged and another one is coming to Portugal (Porto) to get a new sail. but besides that the little boats keep sailing without any serious problem. The organization says on the news:

"Only some more hours for the 13 sailors to escape nasty weather. For 24 hours they took refuge in their cabins to be protected from the seas and winds."

Yoann Richomme (DLBC - Module Création) says:

"the cockpit is swept away by the waves constantly there should be 4-5 m swell, it blows 42 knots, it is almost the strongest since we got into the gale . I'm starting to get into the heart of the matter. tonight I had between 30 and 35 knots, then it does not fall below 35, it will rise to 45 knots soon.

...I got good naps, I have eaten. Anyway, within a Figaro Beneteau it does not take hours to visit, so it is time for it to end! "


Site Officiel de la Transat Bretagne Martinique 2013

Chapeau to these guys and most of all chapeau to this little boat:

Figaro BENETEAU II / One-design / Sailing Yachts - BENETEAU

a 10m boat very light boat (3000kg) a boat that it is not only fast but also very seaworthy:



Transat Bretagne Martinique 2013
 
#3,726 · (Edited)
Aluyacht 480

Since we are talking about Aluminium boats let me present the AY 480, the Italian voyage boat. I don't think it is as well designed as the Allures, even if it is a fixed keel boat, built like a tank.

It is a Zerbinati design and the boat has an interesting story. It started to be a Dudley Dix design, one of those you can buy on internet but they had trouble in making the boat by the plans and they hired Zerbinati to make things operational. In the end they did not liked the boat and asked Zerbinati to make a better one and this is the result.

The boat has a bulbed keel with 2.30m draft and a D/B ratio of 32%. That and a 4.5m beam will give it a huge stability.

I like the power and stability, not much the design. I am waiting for the next generation of aluminium boats, the ones that will have this power and a keel that swings up, with all the ballast on it. I know, it exists already with the Atlantic but the design is a bit too racing looking, the interior is not as good as the one on the Allures and the price is very high. I wonder who among the French builders will be the first to propose such a type of aluminium boat. I bet on Alubat for that. They need to have an innovative product to respond to Boreal and Allures.

The AY 480:

















 
#3,728 ·
Bavaria cruiser 56: on the water

First photos of the boat on the water. A test should be published in Yacht magazine soon. The boat looks powerful and certainly a lot better than the previous model, the 55. Both were designed by Farr but this one looks a lot less bulky than the previous model. The interior looks also better, more functional, and better designed.

They sold more than 70 boats from the previous model. I bet this one will sell better. The boat has a great price, probably the lowest on the class, a big galley and an improved interior. I don't like the Garage design and I think that with a better design they could have a dinghy inside without the need to deflate it.

The interior:

Bavaria Yachtbau: CRUISER 56

Bavaria Yachtbau: CRUISER 56

Bavaria Yachtbau: CRUISER 56

It looks well on the water. Regarding performance let's wait for the test results:











 
#3,731 · (Edited)
Volta 12,20

In fact that concept that I was talking about on a previous post, I mean ".. the next generation of aluminium boats, the ones that will have this power (lots of it) and a keel that swings up, with all the ballast on it." exists already but only as a custom boat made by a reputable French shipyard specialized on aluminium boats (it was there that the first two Boreal were built).

The designer is one of the best and most innovative of the new generation of French NA, Pierre Roland with Delion. I have posted already about that boat (the first one is being built) but I guess it deserves another post:

Pierre Rolland says about the boat (translated):

THE VOLTA 12.20 is a fast cruising sailboat cruising with variable draft. Built in aluminum, it has a swing keel.

As a sailboat it is a chameleon: It is a bluewater voyage boat , fast and efficient, efficient and stable thanks to its deep draft and ballasted keel. A
Bird of the open sea that can turn in a perfect coastal cruiser due to its very small draft with the keel up.

The big RM and draft as well as the design makes it an excellent upwind boat, and a very seaworthy boat. The weight gained on ballast by this type of keel as well as the efficient hull allows a very good downwind performance and planning speeds.The keel outside the boat permits a not restricted layout with great living accommodation.

It has an effective and simple rigging. The large well protected cockpit provides an easy access to transom platform. It is protected and ergonomic in navigation while being comfortable at anchor.

It is a solid boat: The aluminum construction ensures high resistance to impact.The front and rear closed bulkheads increases security in case of open water.

It has a bright interior: The panoramic roof brings a lot of clarity in the Galley and saloon. The sea view is very pleasant in anchorage and navigation.
The galley and head are particularly thought in what regards ergonomics for use at anchor and in navigation, an important factor in a living aboard boat.

An easy sailboat: With a reasonable size, the VOLTA 12.20 is easy to maneuver with a small crew, at sea or in port.
Its program is to offer an exciting navigation and comfortable time on anchorage or marina.


The boat weights 8000kg. That is possible due to a ballast of only 2100kg on a keel with 2.60m of draft. I would ask for more 500kg of ballast but as it is the low CG will provide already a big RM (increased by a big beam) and a decent AVS. All in all, a very interesting boat. If my plans included extensive bluewater sailing it would be something like this that I would be looking for. This boat weights less 2.3T than the Allures 39.9 for about the same sail and probably a similar RM. But that is just me that likes to have fun sailing besides liking cruising and voyaging.













 
#3,732 · (Edited)
Interesting to me, that what is obviously lacking is any sturdy hand holds in the companion way for going down the stairs. There are no handholds down below at all. I consider this important in boats designed for sailing in any sea state. Or is the focus of design, just to look pretty tied up to the dock? (not that I consider this to be an atrractive boat below decks. Simply not my cup of tea)

When I look at boats, I picture what I need when underway. That foo foo glass sink in the head, is so shallow that any water would slop over in any sort of wake or sea state. And the sharp corners will likely find the softest, most vascular foreheads in a short period of time.

Again ... in the head there are no handholds at all, and the toilet is facing the wrong way. Are folks buying these boats, actually planning to hoist sails in 20 knots and understand heeling? Do they understand what one needs for safe navigating down below to make coffee or do anything while underway? That towel rack is sure to be a point of contact for knees and thighs, and catch clothes.

Give me a boat for sailing designed by those who actually sail it, and not one like this whose design seems to geared toward life tied up to the dock. This is not a boat that I would want to go offshore or in any sea state with. The lack of thought in the layout down below shows the priorities, and it's not for any serious sailing.
 
#3,734 ·
Thanks Hannah2, for asking me to clarify. I realize now that there are several possibilities.
I was referring to the interior of the AY 480. There is one chrome handhold above the companionway that one could not reach going down the stairs. The boat looks cheap and poorly thought out.
The Bavaria looks more thoughtfully and solidly designed below, yet still lacks any handholds.
 
#3,737 ·
Re: Dufour 36 performance

hi David, Hi Paulo,

I am considering buying a ELAN350 or a Dufour 36P and your discussion is quite interesting to me.

Questions:

Could you explain me your ratios ? D/L , SA/D, B/D etc ...

More over I would like to find some rating for these boats ( IRC or Club Racing handicap ) so as to see if the (expected) fast boat I will buy give me a chance of winning a Club regatta.
Many thnaks for your inpout!
 
#3,738 · (Edited)
Dufour 36 p / Elan 350

hi David, Hi Paulo,

I am considering buying a ELAN350 or a Dufour 36P and your discussion is quite interesting to me.

Questions:

Could you explain me your ratios ? D/L , SA/D, B/D etc ...

More over I would like to find some rating for these boats ( IRC or Club Racing handicap ) so as to see if the (expected) fast boat I will buy give me a chance of winning a Club regatta.
Many thnaks for your inpout!
Hi, welcome to sailnet and to this thread:).

The Elan 350 and the Dufour 36p are great boats but also very different boats. Probably the Elan is faster downwind and the Dufour better upwind.

DUFOUR 36P sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

ELAN 350 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Regarding the ratios they are not mine. Have a look:

How Boat Displacement and Sail Area Affect Performance

Sailboat Ratio Information

Regarding ratings probably the best are ORCI ratings but take into consideration that same model boats can have small differences due to different sails and materials:

http://www.wne-yachting.nl/cms/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Elan350_ORCi_SWE38.pdf

http://www.avop.org/flota/cert-orc/2013/PER1607.pdf

Take into consideration that the file of that Elan regards one with 2.33m draft and that the one from the Dufour regards one with 2.17m. That will give a proportionally better upwind performance to the Elan but just because the boats have different drafts.





The speeds are very similar but the Elan is a boat that will heel more easily, specially upwind.

The chance of winning club regattas has more to do how the boat can sail to its rating than with the absolute performance of the boat. To know about that you will not find it through the boat rating but in what regards the number of races the boat is winning. In that respect is to early to know how the 36p will perform but the idea I have is that the Elan, even if a great performance cruising boat and a fast boat, is not specially good in what regards sailing to its ratio.

Maybe you should consider also a Salona. Those can sail to their ratios and have been winning races.

Start to look at the results on major ORC and IRC races. that will give you a clue about winning boats. As I have said, that has not necessarily to do with absolute boat performance but generally a winning boat is a fast boat. To see how fast it really is look for the times in real time since victories and the classification are given in compensated time.

Regards

Paulo
 
#3,743 ·
Re: J Boats & ratings

We raced & cruised a J/130 for many years - in the right breeze on the right course it had few peers but it certainly wasn't optimised for IRC out of the factory, which could get frustrating in mixed fleet club racing.

J boats got better clued onto IRC in the last 10 years (catching up to X yachts) - especially for lighter wind conditions when asymetric kites/retractable bowsprits on cruiser-racers over 10 metres had struggled to keep ahead (on time) on the downwind legs.

Asym kites have become more common place now but many of those newer boats / one-offs are also optimised better for IRC. The other big variable with 10m+ yachts, esp on short courses is whether your crew are good enough to sail to the rating ! Sometimes difficult to assess if no others of the same design in your fleet.
 
#3,744 · (Edited)
Ratings: ORCI versus IRC

We raced & cruised a J/130 for many years - in the right breeze on the right course it had few peers but it certainly wasn't optimised for IRC out of the factory, which could get frustrating in mixed fleet club racing.

J boats got better clued onto IRC in the last 10 years (catching up to X yachts) - especially for lighter wind conditions when asymetric kites/retractable bowsprits on cruiser-racers over 10 metres had struggled to keep ahead (on time) on the downwind legs.

Asym kites have become more common place now but many of those newer boats / one-offs are also optimised better for IRC. ....
What about ORCI in US?

In Europe it is winning rapidly acceptance over IRC. On the Sydney-Hobart race the number of boats racing on ORCI is becoming bigger each year. They have made in 2011 some interesting comparisons between the two rating systems:

Rolex Sydney Hobart 2011 ORCi versus IRC as handicap rule :

With the introduction of the ORCi, offered by the Offshore Racing Council (ORC) as the replacement for IMS, a number of owners (amongst those Syd Fischer) have been in recent years expressing their preference for a measured, transparent rating rule. ...

It seems the number of boats entered under ORCi is slowly but surely growing, with 38 boats this year ticking both IRC and ORCi options.

The winner of the Sydney Hobart race has won in both IRC and ORC although they are two fundamentally different systems. It will be interesting to compare the two sets of results at the end of this year's race.

We talked to Matt Allen pre-Hobart about the two rules.

He explained 'ORCi addresses stability issues where IRC doesn't. The ORCi stability index is derived from the old IMS stability index which is something that we all know and trust in a comprehensive fashion. It's used today to determine whether boats meet the stability requires for the Hobart race.

'ORCi is a transparent rule while IRC is not. There are pros and cons for each rule.

'I think also measuring the stability is a good thing as long as stability is encouraged. We don't want to go back to sailing tippy boats. IMS, people thought it was in some respects a good rule but didn't encourage boats to be stable and didn't move with the times and possibly didn't encourage boats to be quick as much as one might have wanted them to be.

'I think IRC encouraged quick boats at 50 foot plus and has traditionally not encouraged boats under 50 feet or under 45 feet to be all that fast.

'There is a comment from a lot of countries where they believe that the racer cruiser is more fairly treated in ORCi than IRC.

'They tend to think that some production boats do well under IRC while other brands do not seem to be nearly as well handicapped. Under ORCi they are possibly more evenly treated. ....

Dobbs Davis from the Offshore Rating Council commented 'ORC seems to be doing a better job across a broader range of boat types than some of the other rating rules. ...

'Back in the days of IMS in the late 90s and early 2000s the measurement of stability was there but it was not accurately modelled in the performance of the VPP so the designers have worked around it.

'That's been gone since 2007 when the ORC invested heavily in better analysis to produce much more accurate results.

'Under ORCi Fast boats do fine and slow boats do fine. That's the challenge of all these rules, to make them work across the range of boat types. It is a challenge for sure but based on the results that we saw from the recent World Championships where we had 119 boats from 16 countries and in which we had that broad range of boat types, it seems to be working and it seems to be fair.

...

'It's a scientific based system with no politics, no guessing. The rule is downloadable.

'Boats are entering ORCi because they get a certificate anyway to get the stability.


Sail-World.com : Rolex Sydney Hobart 2011 ORCi versus IRC as handicap rule

and how about a single world rating system?

The Royal Ocean Racing Club (RORC) and Union Nationale pour La Course au
Large (UNCL), joint owners of the IRC rating rule, have been in discussion with the
Offshore Racing Congress (ORC) about the possibility of creating a unified
organisation to govern yacht ratings worldwide. This initiative to bring the world
offshore rating systems together was endorsed by ISAF following its AGM in 2009 in
Korea.

The intention is for RORC/UNCL and ORC to create a joint venture company which
would run the existing rules, IRC and ORC and then in time, using the combined
knowledge and resources, evolve new rating systems that combine the benefits of
IRC and ORC to create fast, fun and seaworthy boats for unified competition all over
the world.


http://www.nrv.de/uploads/media/PressreleaseRORC.pdf

http://www.rorcrating.com/images/stories/pdf/irc-orc_qa_101115_3.pdf
 
#3,747 ·
Dufour 410

Dufour had made a great come back from its financial troubles a year ago: the 36p was boat of the year and they renovated their entire Grand Large line with new models.

We had already talked about the 500, lets talk about the 410, a very nice and modern boat, very well designed on the interior and hull design. A Felci design and a particularly elegant one. The boat follows the general tendency regarding beamy boats with beam brought back. That would give a particularly forgiving boat, an easy one to sail, not particularly good in light winds or upwind sailing but very stable downwind or in any other situation.

It is on the heavy side of cruisers, this one is 1430kg heavier than the previous model, the 405 and it is now more heavier than Bavaria 40 or a Hanse 415. It is hard to understand that huge difference in weight.

The D/B ratio is normal from this kind of boats and keels (28%) and with big beam (4.20m) and displacement it will provide a big stability to this boat.

It has only 71 sqm of sail and that will mot make it a fast boat at least with weaker winds. A very conservative boat with looks that seem to deny that.

The interior looks very bright and tidy. They opted for a spacious galley that will give plenty space to the saloon but that will shine on anchor or at the marina. No support at all to cook while sailing on the wrong tack.















410 - Grand Large - DUFOUR Yachts

I am a bit confused about the type of sailors that they are targeting with this boat. I mean the conservative side versus modern looks. Maybe they are right and know what they are doing. I guess i will have to wait to see if the boat will sell well or not.

 
#3,748 · (Edited)
Hanse 415

A test, now on line, by YachtingMonthy that confirms my opinion about the boat:

Among the mass production mainstream 40fts this one is one of the best if not the best for bluewater sailing. The test is made by Chris Beenson that is a very conservative sailor, very British in that sense and it is nice to see that he gives 5 stars (the maximum) in what regards trade wind voyaging and 4 stars in what regards offshore passage making.

http://www.hanseyachts.co.uk/pdf/2012-06-07_181613.pdf

 
#3,749 ·
Fox 10.20 Capado

And they are almost finishing their circumnavigation.

Sailing from Brazil to Grenade:



They went fast: Average speed on 2127 NM - 8.0K:cool: Not bad for a 10m cruising boat circumnavigating and with the needed charge for doing it.

By the way the owners of Capado, a young couple, are doing this project on a sabatic year and to have money for it they half build their boat and they are going to sell it at the end of their voyage. Could be interesting for someone looking to a small fast bluewater boat ready to go for another circumnavigation and with all problems sorted out.

...
 
#3,750 ·
"Kiwi Spirit" Paris 63 (Farr designed) - 'green' Circimnavigation

Here is an interesting campaign. Any comment on this boat design? "A dual-purpose boat."



Kiwi Spirit: A 63-foot Globe Girdler from Lyman-Morse | Cruising World
"Paris 63, designed by the engineers at Farr Yacht Design ... Stanley's boat-the appropriately named Kiwi Spirit ... is fit out as a lavishly appointed cruising boat with full amenities, including staterooms, a powerful diesel, a generator, refrigeration.... However, when Stanley takes off for the high seas, almost all of it will be gone.... the modular furniture and the heavy-duty machinery-can be removed via the companionway ... goals will be the first-ever completion of a completely green, non-stop and non-assisted passage, with nary a drop of fuel aboard. Instead, for power, he will rely on a suite of solar panels, a series of wind generators, and a quartet of hydro-generators, the juice from which will be stored in a bank of ion phosphate batteries ... Kiwi Spirit, with a lifting keel and a convertible interior, is most certainly the definition of a dual-purpose boat."

Dr. Stanley Paris - Kiwi Spirit, a custom designed 63-foot yacht

Built in Maine by Lyman-Morse
Lyman Morse Boatbuilding - Kiwi Spirit/Paris 63 - Thomaston, Maine

Fair winds, Dr. Paris
 
#3,752 ·
Here is an interesting campaign. Any comment on this boat design? "A dual-purpose boat."



Kiwi Spirit: A 63-foot Globe Girdler from Lyman-Morse | Cruising World
"Paris 63, designed by the engineers at Farr Yacht Design ... Stanley's boat-the appropriately named Kiwi Spirit ... is fit out as a lavishly appointed cruising boat with full amenities, including staterooms, a powerful diesel, a generator, refrigeration.... However, when Stanley takes off for the high seas, almost all of it will be gone.... the modular furniture and the heavy-duty machinery-can be removed via the companionway ... goals will be the first-ever completion of a completely green, non-stop and non-assisted passage, with nary a drop of fuel aboard. Instead, for power, he will rely on a suite of solar panels, a series of wind generators, and a quartet of hydro-generators, the juice from which will be stored in a bank of ion phosphate batteries ... Kiwi Spirit, with a lifting keel and a convertible interior, is most certainly the definition of a dual-purpose boat."

Dr. Stanley Paris - Kiwi Spirit, a custom designed 63-foot yacht

Built in Maine by Lyman-Morse
Lyman Morse Boatbuilding - Kiwi Spirit/Paris 63 - Thomaston, Maine

Fair winds, Dr. Paris
Interesting stuff:). Thanks for having posted about it.

Nice boat but no secrets here. Farr had chose for the job a boat clearly inspired on Open 60's (he designed a few), almost as beamy with about the same draft (keel down), torpedo keel and two rudders.

Obviously Paris is after some kind of record otherwise he could ave just picked a standard 60ft Aluminium Cigale and do the same with a fraction of the cost (putting all the stuff the boat needs to be autonomous).

I guess that autonomy would be the main problem. If the Acciona would not have capsized (after having lost its keel) already near the end of its circumnavigation there would have no record to beat, except the one in what regards age and regarding those kinds of records, I mean kinder garden girls circumnavigating and old men for a reference time, well, I have already said what I think and I don't like it.

Everything will go alright if the hidrogenerateurs are working bur we saw on the Vendee Globe that some had big troubles with them (hitting debris) and if they are gone it would be difficult or impossible to get the needed energy.

Anyway if what Paris wants is a reference time he should do it on a racing Open 60. On the next Vendee Globe, if not soon, somebody is going to finish what Acciona was close to do and beat by far the time he can make with that boat, even if a fast boat for a cruising one.

Skipper - Vendée Globe 2012-2013

Anyway, the best of luck to him even if doing that with 76 years does not seem reasonable to me. There are no miracles and a man with 76 years is more prone to all kind of health problems and requires to be checked regularly not to mention more fragile bones and a bigger risk of breaking one due to an accidental fall. We are talking about being probably 5 months without any kind of assistance. On a 76 year old man that is a big risk, far bigger than the one of having problems with the boat (energy problems apart).

Anyway, the boat looks great;) even if I don't understand why the water length was not maximized. Maybe it has to do with the personal taste of Paris in what regards the shape of the bow. I cannot see any other explanation for Farr to have used an old bow shape on a modern boat.:confused:











Regards

Paulo
 
#3,753 · (Edited)
the discussion of the Watt&sea hydrogenerator is also interesting:

http://www.lymanmorse.com/documents/Ocean_Navigator_Electricity_From_Heavy_Water_20121217_143912.pdf

The boat is also being proposed (with a bit of reading between the lines) as a production prototype: "A successful circumnavigation will demonstrate that with modern design and at a reasonable cost a boat can be produced in the United States that can solo circumnavigate, entirely green and in record time thus demonstrating a fast short handed family cruiser. ... All cruise boats should be capable of being sailed solo. Even if there are three on board." []Lyman Morse Boatbuilding - Kiwi Spirit/Paris 63 - Thomaston, Maine

And one notices with near amazement the absence of corporate logos plastered everywhere. Considering the times we live in, there seem several unique aspects to the project, and campaign.

Oh Paulo, you wrote: "Anyway if what Paris wants is a reference time he should do it on a racing Open 60." But I think Paris makes the point (as you have) that at his age and thus ability, he wants a certain comfort and safety level or cushion. And he seems hardly decrepit! He has every possibility of achieving his goals, and so what if they are exceeded later? That seems always the case, as time marches on. To my eye, well the boat looks fantastic.
 
#3,755 · (Edited)
...

The boat is also being proposed (with a bit of reading between the lines) as a production prototype: "A successful circumnavigation will demonstrate that with modern design and at a reasonable cost a boat can be produced in the United States that can solo circumnavigate, entirely green and in record time thus demonstrating a fast short handed family cruiser. ... All cruise boats should be capable of being sailed solo. Even if there are three on board." []Lyman Morse Boatbuilding - Kiwi Spirit/Paris 63 - Thomaston, Maine
Yes Alice, I has saying, the point is not US not being able to do such a boat. That is ridiculous. US produces some of the best boats around, unfortunately not mass produced ones in my opinion. What US brands need is to command designs to top designers and that is what did Paris. If Catalina or Hunter does the same there will be a huge increase in produced boats.

....
Oh Paulo, you wrote: "Anyway if what Paris wants is a reference time he should do it on a racing Open 60." But I think Paris makes the point (as you have) that at his age and thus ability, he wants a certain comfort and safety level or cushion. And he seems hardly decrepit! He has every possibility of achieving his goals, and so what if they are exceeded later? That seems always the case, as time marches on. To my eye, well the boat looks fantastic.
Maybe you have understand me wrongly. When someone wants to achieve something it is important to understand what is the achievement. If what he pretends is to establish some sort of geriatric record regarding circumnavigating solo he could have done it at a third of the price (or less) on the several boats available on the market, specially as you point out, he is has no sponsorship.

Regarding comfort, speed doesn't go with comfort and his boat is a very fast one, a very radical performance cruiser. He would be a lot more comfortable in a slower and less extreme boat. If what he wants is a performance record that goes with his geriatric record than an adapted solo race boat would be the way to go. If sailed conservatively and with a smaller rig it would not be harder to sail that this one, quite the contrary, since the sail area would be a lot smaller and the stability bigger. One that goes for a 4 months speed record has not has his main priority comfort. that is just what I meant.

Regarding age the most famous sailor is Sato, a Japanese one and I don't think that he does that for fame or for breaking geriatric records since he has circumnavigated already 8 times. He does that because he likes to do that and has done that repeatedly, racing and cruising. Even so on his last circumnavigation against the prevailing winds at the age of 77 he experienced an emergency hernia operation, back pain and a knee operation. Heart tablets had also to be delivered.

Paris is an experienced sailor (three North Atlantic crossings, three from Alaska to New Zealand and one circumnavigation) but contrary to Sato he is not an experienced solo sailor.

I hope everything goes well for him but has I have said I do not support geriatric records or infantile ones. In the first case its seems to me that the risks related with health hazard are dis-proportionally high and that makes just no sense.

By the way, by his own words he is trying to beat 4 records:

1 - Oldest to have circumnavigated non-stop (by some 18 years)

2 - Fastest in a cruising boat - the record is 150 days and I am shooting for 120-days, from Bermuda back to Bermuda aiming for Dodge Morgan's record from 1986.

3 - New record to be established from St. Augustine, Florida and back again via Bermuda (no-stopping there)

4 - First ever green using no hydrocarbons, no gas, no diesel. Not even propane or butane.


Regards

Paulo
 
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