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1990s Coastal Cruisers vs. Mid 70s Bluewater Boats

7K views 21 replies 12 participants last post by  Beyond some weather 
#1 ·
I started a thread about a month ago asking for opinions on some mid 70s bluewater cruisers, Cabo Rico, Tayana37, etc.

My budget then was about 50K. But then I saw a 1980 Valiant 40 on yachtworld for 85K and decided maybe I could stretch my budget.

Then I thought if I'm spending that much what else can I find and I now see some very nice early 1990s boats in that price range with some great interiors that look much better than the 70s boats and the Valiant but they are mostly considered coastal cruisers, like Morgans, Catalinas, Pearsons, Irwins, etc.

So the question is would the 1990's boats be a smarter buy even though they aren't as heavy duty as the 70s boats I was considering?

I know it's the sailor more than the boat. But please put that aside in offering your opinions.

My goal is to sail coastally for a year a two then set out to more adventereous trans ocean destinations.
 
#2 ·
Valiants are a special case...they have blisters in that area that are NOT osmotic, but due to the resin not kicking with the glass. Im hardpressed to believe that these blisters wont become structural at some point. THat being said, many a "pimple" valiant is out there which is a testament to how well they're built. Most bluewater cruiers even from the 70s ear (now 40+ years ago...wow) are not going to be in the $50k range. $100k perhaps.

I hope $50k isn't your end budget. Even a modern coastal cruiser in the $50k range is going to need a HELLOVA lot of work to get into shape for crossing the pond. Rigging, chainplates, electronics, and general "beefing up".
 
#4 ·
If you have a budget of $85k for a boat of that age, I would suggest spending a maximum of $50k on the boat since even if you do all of the work yourself, you will easily spend the remaining $35k to get it into the shape you want to go offshore. Our current boat seemed almost perfect with only minor work needed when we bought it five years ago. We budgeted 20% of purchase price for improvements and have now spent almost 50%, and are finally ready to go. (We're leaving the west coast of Canada this August for Mexico and beyond).

Small and good is much better than big and crappy.

Good luck with your boat hunting, maybe we'll see you out there sometime.
 
#5 ·
Part of what I'm looking for, maybe most, is some opinions on the newer systems boats built in the 90's would have. Would these newer systems on production boats trump the heavier build of bluewater boats built in the 70s so one could consider them as safe for long distance off shore cruising?

Would rigging technology and improved manufacturing techniques make a 90's mid level production boat just as sound?
 
#6 ·
The biggest difference between boats of those eras is going to be the hull design, rig configuration, and interior layout. Those are the aspects that I would consider first because they will affect your sailing and life aboard day in and day out.

Remember that what you are seeing in the interiors you like on the 90s boats is a product of the wider hulls, higher coachroofs, and flatter bottoms. There is always a tradeoff in boat design.

What kind of rig would you be comfortable handling? A 70's era cutter with the sail area split 50/50 for and aft or an early 90s masthead sloop with a blade main and big headsails? What are the winds like where you sail? Will you be singlehanding or always have crew?

Think about the underbody and displacement. You may think you want a heavy, full keel boat for your eventual goal of world cruising, but will you be miserable coastal cruising the next few years with a boat that is a bear to get going in light air? Do you like the look of long overhangs on older boats or is it more important to have the speed the long waterline length of newer boats will deliver?

Look at measures like sail area to displacement ratio, displacement to length, capsize screening, and Brewer's motion to comfort ratio.

Find the layouts you want and the rig you are comfortable handling and narrow down from there. If you aren't happy with how the boat performs and aren't comfortable sailing and living on it, you will never cast off those docklines and head out to sea!
 
#7 ·
NaviG,

All good questions. I expect to be sailing in the Sea of Cortez for a couple of years then down the coast to Panama, Ecuador, then out across the Pacific. I'm expecting light to moderate air for most of the time in Cortez.

I've read somewhere that the average wind long distance cruisers encounter is around 11 knots. But of course you need a boat that is capable of handling rough weather from time to time.

I'm agnostic regarding long overhangs and hull shape. Are the long waterlines giving up too much to safety to gain speed? I will be single handing most of the time I expect. The type of sailing I prefer to do is to sail from one anchorage to another in good weather windows then sit on the hook for a few days reading books, swimming, fishing, and relaxing. I'd like to have some comfort but don't demand a lot of extras.

As for rigs, I initially thought of Ketch rigs for easier sail handling but again do 90's boats solve the difficulty of raising and lowering large sails with better technology?

Is the Valiant 40 a bear to get going? Would a 36' 1977 Cabo Rico ketch, priced at $50K, be a bear to get going?

Or would I be smarter buying a 1993 38' Morgan Catalina MkII at $85K. Would it hold up to my sailing plans?
 
#8 ·
Is the Valiant 40 a bear to get going? Would a 36' 1977 Cabo Rico ketch, priced at $50K, be a bear to get going?

Or would I be smarter buying a 1993 38' Morgan Catalina MkII at $85K. Would it hold up to my sailing plans?
I think any of the above would be fine boats for your intended plans, if they are in good condition with proper gear. The milk run through the South Pacific is routinely done with Catalina/Beneteau/Hunter types.

As far as speed goes, with those 3: C38>V40>CR36.

If you're mostly planning for Baja cruising and then a romp through the SoPa, maybe considering comfort at anchor should be a priority, since most folks spend most time anchored, not actually sailing.

I personally really like what the V40 offers...somewhat of a hybrid between traditional heavy full-keelers (think W32, Tayana 37, etc.) and more modern designs with a split underbody. While not fast by today's standard, the V40 is thought of as a good performing classic bluewater boat and as you know, has an excellent reputation among cruisers.

Aesthetically, I like the Cabo Rico best, but have seen a few Tiburons badly in need of repair (leaky decks, etc.), which leaves me with questions. I also think you'll have a hard time finding much selection when it comes to CR 36's.
 
#9 ·
Flatter hulls aka coastal cruisers .. more fun in lighter conditions but make for a lot more forced handling. Forced handling is fun in lighter coastal conditions as speeding around etc..
Boats like Freya 39 are longer keel, good turn of speed, alot easier to flow with when your out and its getting heavy. If American there is one on yachtworld under $50k; maybe near to visit and look??
The longer keel type high heel also allow overpowering mistakes to be spilled easier and thus reduce some wear and tear.
Some like them, some don't, they can be playful after knot long but Don't expect flat water and running knots of an earlier plane; to sink that extra heel angle they are generally with more displacement but displacement stow heavy low might also be easier.. probability is up there..
To me; seeking voyage vessel down my way, I'm looking long, full or skeg in that order for preferable some tack and decent course hold, excellent course hold, hang around and enjoy shorter trips instead at same order.
Daunting aye.. best luck. I believe safety priority IMO and risk is always with everyone
 
#10 ·
You do understand that a long keel does none of the things you suggest that they do, and offers no real benefits in heavier conditions when compared to a well designed more modern design. Pretty much all of the long keel theories that you seem to be referring to were debunked decades ago which is why new serious offshore cruisers no longer look like 19th century workboats.

The whole point of modern designs is that they are easier to handle across a broad range of conditions, more seaworthy, and offer better motion than the older designs. This is especially true in heavy going.

Jeff
 
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#11 ·
So the question is would the 1990's boats be a smarter buy even though they aren't as heavy duty as the 70s boats I was considering?

The 90s boats are built strong enough! Does it even may sense to question that a 20+ year old used boat that is in good shape isn't??

I have no experience with 70s boats. Closest I have is a 1988 modern boat compared to a 2001 modern boat. The 2001 boat is so much more comfortable and easier to sail compared to the 1988 one. I bet if I had a 70s boat I would say the same thing about the 1988 boat.

Get the best condition boat in your budget and get cruising. Doesn't matter as much the age as the condition it is currently in.
 
#14 ·
Yes to a certain extent.
Keelson helps deliver punch or lack of.

Long keel aren't liked sometimes because they have to push bow around and in heavy conditions they can bob thus tack twice to tack once.

Bobbing good though, they stable in seas, characteristics shown on anchors leading to shorter rodes, etc. I haven't an issue with a heavy midship brace, directional stabiliser fore brace bridle on a modern type sail vessel because slap will wake. In growing conditions, thus easy punch is beneficial plus longer run of tension on keel enables traction at lower knots.

Topic popped up so I sent my query too. Deciding similar.
There's a couple of 11 metre one design Hollands going. Perfect little camper. Ideal vessel in controlled conditions to watch kids no matter how old learn to torque shroud and spread load, etc.
Then I thought, maybe I'm wrong about long keel want and need.. Farr, beanatoe, Jean.., etc are beautiful fast capable with cabin that we can enjoy learning upon.. They get slapped abit in gulf but outside on rollers they are superb.. unless storm then they complain about wet, uncomfortable, etc..
Stranger to Tasmania; visited, hung around docks looking at sort of sail they prefer.. each day I walked past hard and always at least 70% were long keel, remainer being modern fin, modern tapered edge and full displacement.

I'm easy.. storms are sudden though.. even forecasts don't catch them until near on front because of probability and way slip of hilo flow is I guess.
I'm liking 70s for that reason.

Cheers to happy days
 
#17 ·
With all due respect. 🙏
🤲
I didn't realise older post neither..
But future readers with same query as our might be researching.
Thus some modern boats become lighter and need to fly. If like skiff though and vessel airborne hydraulic pressure lifting boat is lost. In don't wanna be there conditions though, competent crew can maintain a pace and run up .
Older designs plane yet plane doesn't lift vessel like many assume; plane is like a carpenter shaving a door edge; plane holds vessel down. Hence one gets lighter to move across with heavier crew bracing, one gets down and settles a firmer grip to sustain and punch wind and wave back.

Freedom 😃
 
#22 ·
Thank you. I do apologise for opening old thread but I didn't search nor read date during reading of.



First Golden Globe solo around world. Minute 07:00 descriptive of Southern Ocean. Blow.

Maybe I misread and heavy weather survival was aids such as diesel, satellite, radio, etc ??

I have some experience and nearly all of that is 60s,70s and 90s cruising/racing.
Our family boat was eyed by state champion of class rules, enjoyed super rigid yet underweight joyride, lead blocks required to race due to weight but were used on keelson to alter thickness of plane to suit wind strength.

You all know newbies would prefer modern because easy to learn on and difficult to master.
But heavy weather??
On tack they continuously change tack when wavy. Wave knocks bow, windage too knocks vessel off point. Then accelerate again to pinch up point then knocked. Knocked leaves vulnerable plus carried backwards.
70s longer keels could punch high heel angles. This piercing bow at angle to wave actually squares with wave and plows straight through wave. Very little movement on point. Easy to set and forget sail clews.
Yet 90s had advantage if able to reach tapered knots and lower point but much less drag backwards.

With all due respect.. maybe including 2020 hulls? We look at hard chines are back in fashion thus in heavy a rotation bringing a long keel via a hard chine. A vertical bow to punch. I do not know. Topic I responded as best I could.

Love your work though mod.
👍
 
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