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Gumby suit vs. Wet or dry Suit

10K views 21 replies 18 participants last post by  smurphny 
#1 ·
For those who have listened to the testimony of Bounty crews regarding their survival suit, it seems that there are lot of room for improvement. I have been thinking about instead of buying these expensive overprice suit, why not just get a diving wet suit or dry suit.

Does anyone think of any potential problems with it?
I assume that i will also have my PFD with harness and helmet. I will put this on when there is an imminent capsizing possibility.
 
#2 ·
Not too sure about a dry suit but a wet suit is meant to be used for a short period of time. It helps retain your body heat when in the water but will not work nearly as well as a survival suit. Also, a wet wetsuit will sap your heat faster then dry bare skin when exposed to wind.

I think a survival suit also acts as PFD.

Less than $400 for your life is a no brainer.

Most of the time people have problems with survival suits is because they do not do practice drills. It will give you your best chance of survival in the water if you can get it on in time.
 
#3 · (Edited)
For those who have listened to the testimony of Bounty crews regarding their survival suit, it seems that there are lot of room for improvement. I have been thinking about instead of buying these expensive overprice suit, why not just get a diving wet suit or dry suit.

Does anyone think of any potential problems with it?
I assume that i will also have my PFD with harness and helmet. I will put this on when there is an imminent capsizing possibility.
Ever try to put on a 7mm wet suit when everything is wet and your in panic mode??

Also the price of a dry suit is considerable more then a survival suit..

I've never seen a dive suit come in international orange with attached reflective SOLAS tape

..though it's an interesting idea
 
#5 ·
Wet. dry suit are great for surfing for a few hours, but not for exposure for great periods of time.

aa3jy is right putting on on and hurrying is not gonna work. Take it from an old surfer.
 
#7 ·
Wet. dry suit are great for surfing for a few hours, but not for exposure for great periods of time.

aa3jy is right putting on on and hurrying is not gonna work. Take it from an old surfer.
I think you need to look at terminology a bit, dry suits are made to be worn with under clothes and they provide the warmth, the "dry suit" provides the barrier to the water, thus keeping you dry. Wet suits are the neoprene ones in 2-10mm thickness that count on the body and the neoprene to keep the water between the two "warm". Even the good ones will only keep you "relatively" warm. 7mm wet in 55-75 degree water will become quite cold in a matter of hours, and you will perish if not removed from the water in due time. Some folks will pump hot water in to the space between the skin and the wet suit (ala bering sea gold style)

a good dry suit with correct clothes under will keep you dry and warm, thus alive - MUCH longer than a wet suit. I have done full days of diving with a dry suit and never gotten cold. And only my head wet. Or suffered chills and such after a long day diving. Pee breaks can be a challenge or using the P-valve, especially for the female amongst us.

And when used correctly, dry suits can allow pretty good movement and activity. Gumby suits are for survival use only, very restricted movement, walking and such is nigh impossible for any length of time. However, IF you can get in it before you hit the water, you can gain several hours survival.

Getting in on dry pavement is a chore. Getting in, panicked, tossing deck, water or wet clothes, could take 10 minutes or so.
 
#6 ·
I'm with caberg. It depends on where you sail. Also a wet or dry suit is damn handy when there's a line wrapped around the rudder.

And sailing in a survival suit must be impossible.

If I sailed far off shore in cold waters, both. Coastal waters and the Chesapeake, wet/dry suit.
 
#8 ·
Dry suits do not breathe. I cannot imagine wearing one for very long outside the water without getting wet from sweat. So you still need to put it on just before you hit the water. I would go for the survival suit and know how to put it on quick. They are baggy enough that you wear clothes underneath and still have enough room to get them on. Plenty of videos on YouTube showing people putting them on in about a 1.5 minutes and not rushing.

Plus, as mentioned before, they have the high visibility colors and reflectors to get you seen by SAR.

I own 2 wetsuits but I will buy a survival suit for going off shore.
 
#9 ·
I have a neoprene drysuit from the 80's. The movement restriction in that thing is crazy - there's no way I'd want to try to wear it while sailing in heavy conditions. THe fabric drysuits have better movement. If you could wear it partially unzipped, that might alleviate some of the heat/sweat/dampness issues, but of course having it unzipped when you hit the water negates the whole "drysuit" idea.
 
#10 ·
Take a look at the "Mustang" series of immersion suits and other gear that the USCG and other agencies wear. I choose not to take the gumby suit, but had an older series of a 1 piece mustang survival suit. If your in cold waters you might want to consider a double floor for your liferaft.
 
#11 ·
For a wet suit to properly protect one against heat loss, which is the point of wearing one, it has to fit very tightly to limit the amount of water that lies between your skin and the suit. Your body will warm a small amount, but too much will become a heat sink. Therefore, they are both uncomfortable to move in and difficult to don. They are, therefore, impractical for wearing continuously or for donning quickly.

There are many different types of dry suits. Some intended for surfing, as Chef points out. Others for diving, with the ability to add and extract air from within, to compensate for the pressure of depth. Diving suits often require the user to wear insulation beneath them. Some are made from crushed neoprene, providing some warmth. These are all very expensive and unnecessary for use as a survival suit.

If I were going to wear a dry suit in anticipation of ditching, I would want an aviators anti-exposure suit. More flexibility, but still restrictive, and they typically have relief zippers for using the head.

However, I don't think the odds are good enough that one would always anticipate the need to have these on in advance. Therefore, getting in quickly is the relative advantage of a gumby suit. Although, you should give it a try sometime, it still isn't simple.
 
#12 ·
My shorty scuba diving wetsuit will be the first thing that I put on if I have to abandon!
I sail in the tropics so warmth is not as important as high latitudes... But movement is.

Steve Calaghan in Survive said he was so badly bumped around in the liferaft and had so many bruises and cuts that wouldn't heal. A wetsuit would protect from those sort of injuries.
 
#13 ·
We carry "Gumby" suits for the need to "abandon ship". Practicing with them is almost fun. The grandchildren sure enjoy watching. We also have Mustang suits with harness that we can sail in if conditions require that kind of protection. The Mustang suits are warm and float. With their built in harness they provide a lot of security and comfort in rough conditions. Collars and cuffs will keep water out but if I were expecting to be bobbing around in the north Atlantic I would rather be in the "Gumby". Having the other things you would need for survival in pockets or attached to either suit is almost as important as having the correct suit.

We do not carry a a life raft when cruising within 75 miles of shore. Survival times should allow rescue in either of the suits. Having a radio, a PLB of some sort along and flares are essential, too (all waterproof and floating)! When we paddle in the open ocean both paddlers are equipped with them and we are wearing farmer john wet suits. Those exploits never get very far from shore. The canoe is equipped with floatation and we practice self rescue in that, too.

I can imagine hurrying to put on a wet suit in difficult conditions. NOT! The "Gumby" is the way to go if you are ditching.

Down
 
#15 ·
We also carry the gumby suits for emergencies. They are the only thing that you are going to have a chance of getting into in a hurry. Getting into my 7mm one piece wetsuit is almost a two person job even when warm, dry and on a stable platform (if I lost some weight it might be a little easier, but you get the drift). You can quite often find the gumby suits on craigslist for around $100-150 in very good condition (most are never used, just practice on/off). They take up a bit of space but are flexible so they conform to weird compartments.
 
#16 ·
I participated in a survival course that included jumping off a boat and swimming ashore and spending the night on an island in the southern Puget Sound. That made me a believer in the gumby suits. Also, as previously mentioned I was surprised to learn that a wet wetsuit hindered me keeping warm when out of the water. We did two night dives in Hawaii a few years back. I was a little chilled after the second dive and kept my suit on during the ride back to the harbor. I kept getting more chilled and the dive master recommended taking the wet suit off. I did and it was instant relief from the chill of the wet wetsuit.
 
#18 · (Edited)
a. We are comparing dive-style dry suits with sailing style dry suits. Not apples to apples at all.

b. While Goretex doesn't make any much difference to surfers and divers, for a deck suit it makes a huge difference. Many kayakers wear Goretex dry suits in the winter while under heavy exersion. Racers wear dry suits. I've worn one as foul weather gear many times. No trickle of water down the neck. However, this only makes sense below ~ 55F, depending on the amount of spray. Above that foul weather gear is better.

c. Bright colors and SOLAS tape are available on some models.

d. Some deck suits offer supplemental ventilation (they can be worn with the neck seal off) with a built-in jacket over.

e. 10 minutes to put on? I don't think it takes much over 2 minutes (the CG requirement). I'll have to time it next time. And there is no reason to be doing this wet, in a rush. You should be wearing it if conditions are like that. Will you have 2 minutes to find and put on your gumby suit with the keel falls off or the boat is rolled? No.



(this has a hood, I'm just not wearing it)


Certainly there are differences, compared to a conventional immersion suit. One is that you will actually be wearing it when you go over.

__________

I'm going to be writing an article comparing dry suits and immersion suits to the CG standard this winter. Any one in the Annapolis area want to play in cold water in January? Or just bring your immersion suit and watch someone else test it while you recline in a heated cabin? PM
 
#19 ·
pdq-
You might want to take a long look at materials and longevity. Diving suits tend to come in three types, none of them GoreTex.(G)
The least expensive are calendared nylon, i.e. cordura cloth with a waterproof plastic layer hot-rolled onto one side, sometimes with a third protective layer over that. In five or ten years, used or not, the waterproof layer delaminates and you start leaking. Not what you want for a survival suit.
Then there's "neoprene" aka "foamed neoprene" like a typical wetsuit. With glued and stitched seams, it is much more durable. Except, if the neoprene has been foamed with chemicals, it tends to contract and shrink as it ages. In five years a Large can become a Medium. The better stuff is nitrogen-blown, the bubbles are formed by expanding nitrogen gas as the neoprene cures, and that stuff is stable. And about twice the price.
And then there's "crushed neoprene", just as durable but less buoyant, which is not something you'd want in a float suit. Or plain solid rubber, like Viking brand dry suits, also not something you'd want (no insulation, great durability, easy repairs) in a float suit.

For a gumbie suit? Nothing will compare to a good nitrogen-blown neoprene suit. The materials simply are all different, horses for courses. For a kayaker, GoreTex is great. For a diver, worse than useless.

I'd suggest there's really very little to compare, aside from brand quality choices, of the appropriate material.
 
#20 ·
pdq-
You might want to take a long look at materials and longevity. Diving suits tend to come in three types, none of them GoreTex.(G)
The least expensive are calendared nylon, i.e. cordura cloth with a waterproof plastic layer hot-rolled onto one side, sometimes with a third protective layer over that. In five or ten years, used or not, the waterproof layer delaminates and you start leaking. Not what you want for a survival suit.
Then there's "neoprene" aka "foamed neoprene" like a typical wetsuit. With glued and stitched seams, it is much more durable. Except, if the neoprene has been foamed with chemicals, it tends to contract and shrink as it ages. In five years a Large can become a Medium. The better stuff is nitrogen-blown, the bubbles are formed by expanding nitrogen gas as the neoprene cures, and that stuff is stable. And about twice the price.
And then there's "crushed neoprene", just as durable but less buoyant, which is not something you'd want in a float suit. Or plain solid rubber, like Viking brand dry suits, also not something you'd want (no insulation, great durability, easy repairs) in a float suit.

For a gumbie suit? Nothing will compare to a good nitrogen-blown neoprene suit. The materials simply are all different, horses for courses. For a kayaker, GoreTex is great. For a diver, worse than useless.

I'd suggest there's really very little to compare, aside from brand quality choices, of the appropriate material.
Good points.

1. Yup, GoreTex has lifetime durability limits, thought they have come far from the early products. I have not had 3-layer GoreTex fall apart in well over a decade, so I'm not sure whether that concern is still valid. I would also counter by stating that used on a regular basis sailing and kayaking, 10 years is an eternity and you got your moneys' worth. On the other hand, the Gumby suit will never be used. Replacing the drysuit, well used, after a decade is a far better value.

2. GoreTex for dive suits is rather silly. Agreed.

3. Foamed neoprene is durable--I have some ancient wet suits that are fully functional--but as a deck suit material it is useless.

4. The "no comparison" statement is simply bold, unless it applies only to dive-type dry suits. Dry Suits and Immersion suits are obviously related, and some have evolved to be virtually identical, since there are jobs that require survival protection you can work in.

There are 3 core questions:
1. Is a dry suit practical as cold weather deck wear? Many professional sailors feel the answer is yes.
2. Given the budget choice between dry suits and gumby suit, which makes more sense? Gumby suits are a little cheaper, but a drysuit is far more likely to save your life (MOB seems much more likely than sinking, though I have no measure of how much more likely). You can, of course, take both.
3. How do dry suits compare, according to the CG criteria? Some things will be failures (1 size fits all, durability in diesel), some will be passes (water exclusion, mobility), some will be conditional pass (wear a PFD, shoes, gloves, hood), and some would be interesting to see (righting, buoyancy, warmth--I'm just not sure, not having worn a gumby suit).
 
#21 ·
I think every piece of Gore-Tex I've had, has eventually failed. The first being an early down parka in the 1980's, the second being a Marmot jacket in 1996. Which was sent in to Marmot for a zipper repair, and while they examined it they apparently found some delamination internally and told me they'd replace it, please pick a new one. Followed by a third jacket a few years later (from someone else) and an REI-branded jacket around five years ago. All with no visible delamination, but functional failures in the Gore-Tex that keep me in warranty replacements by now.

The delamination I was referring to has got nothing to do with Gore-Tex, though. Diving dry suits that are typically called "Tri-Lam" have an outer layer of light Cordura, for strength, and a middle layer of waterproof plastic film, followed by an inner wear liner. That plastic film is like saran wrap, and it ALWAYS fails. Even life rafts made that way (lightweight, i.e. private aviation ones) routinely get condemned when that layer fails.

If they get five years, that may be plenty for foredeck work or kayaking. But for a survival suit? Nuh-uh, you need the suit itself to have the insulation, you may not be wearing longjohns when you need to get into it.

And in order to get the insulation and waterproofing at the same time, in the same garment? Sorry, that makes foamed neoprene the only gumbie suit that is really worth buying. Anything else is just delusional. Like going to Vegas and simply assuming that of course, YOU'RE going to break the bank there.(G)
 
#22 ·
Depends on things like whether you want to store gumby suits and if you're sailing in places where cold water survival is an issue. You can load the boat with so much survival gear that there's no room to put anything else:) It's specifically a piece of survival equip, not a wet suit, not good for anything else, large. A good, thick (3/8" or 1/4") wet suit, mask, and flippers might be a better option because it will be good for diving under to fix stuff and pleasure diving. If you're worried about sinking, spend the money on a good liferaft.
 
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