Global Warming Debate

[denby]

Originally Posted by svitineris

Is Einsteins theory of relativity debated, does E=mc^2, can the atom really be split??? People need to stop stating theory as fact and accept that there is no proven explanation yet for the rise of the earths temp. Global Warming is happening but there is no fact to the cause. I will not be bullied to thinking I am fault for the earth rising 2 degrees in the last 100 years when Mars had the exact same warming trend!!!!

Could it be the sun?

Dennis

[camaraderie]

Itineris...while I take and agree with your point about no proven explanation...in the interest of the facts, pls. note that there has NOT been even 1 degree of warming in the last 100 years:

"Average ground station readings do show a mild warming of 0.6 to 0.8C over the last 100 years, which is well within the natural variations recorded in the last millennium. The ground station network suffers from an uneven distribution across the globe; the stations are preferentially located in growing urban and industrial areas ("heat islands"), which show substantially higher readings than adjacent rural areas ("land use effects")."
*******
Note also this pie chart which summarizes the findings on a survey of about 35% of the 1200 or so US temp monitoring stations:


Note CRN 5= error grater than 5 degrees Centigrade
CRN4=error greater than 2 degrees C
CRN3=error greater than 1degree

This survey done within the last year by humans...not computer models...with photographs of each station taken and a written report on each. Still 2/3's left to do...but the trend has not changed.
http://www.surfacestations.org/USHCN_stationlist.htm

[denby]

The location of some of these stations reminds me of when I was a kid trying to skip school, mom puts a thermometer in my mouth then leaves room, take thermometer out and hold it against light bulb for a bit, mom returns and reads thermometer, I sty home do to fever. It worked some times.

Dennis

[sailaway21]

Oh my God!
denby is Carl Sagan! I thought you were DEAD!

[Sailormann]

Is Einsteins theory of relativity debated, does E=mc^2, can the atom really be split??? People need to stop stating theory as fact and accept that there is no proven explanation yet for the rise of the earths temp. Global Warming is happening but there is no fact to the cause. I will not be bullied to thinking I am fault for the earth rising 2 degrees in the last 100 years when Mars had the exact same warming trend!!!!

Well it's not ALL your fault but...

As far as the theories go - Einstein et. al. - we tend to accept them as fact because they hold true for any particular set of physical circumstances we can obtain. Hence, if they are not 100% accurate, we can at least be reasonably sure that they do not run counter to the natural world.

Now you are absolutely correct when you state that nobody has been able to definitively identify a sole cause or describe a model that explains the global warming and climate change phenomena we are currently observing.

But - that doesn't make it any less true that the polar ice caps are getting smaller, the weather is getting a little weirder and a lot of lakes are drying up. I have no idea if this is merely a cyclical thing that's occurring or if we should expect the sky to fall in next Tuesday.

What I do know is that the burning of fossil fuels to generate energy increases the amount of carbon dioxide (CO) in the atmosphere, and that the CO levels in the air are higher than they have been in my lifetime. I don't think that this is a good thing, so I try to use less energy, burn less gas and just generally waste less stuff than I used to.

I don't need a comprehensive bio-meterological model to tell me that conservation is a good idea, it's pretty basic logic.

So if I can inconvenience myself a tad in order to help the general health of the planet, without knowing exactly what degree of perpetuation of chaotic theory will need to be applied in order to decipher current patterns, then why can't you inconvenience yourself a little too ???

[poopdeckpappy]

The wildfires in San Diego county a couple weeks ago pumped as much carbon dioxide ( 7.9 metric tons ) into the atmosphere in just one week than the state's entire motor vehicle traffic does in a month.

Overall, fires in the contiguous United States and Alaska release about 290 million metric tons of carbon dioxide per fire season ( a 2-3 month period ), per year

[sailaway21]

Well now Sailormann. That was quite slick on your part. Give 'em the old morality play. Human nature is perfectable, I'm perfecting mine, why don't you try to perfect your's? But since there are certain troglodytes out there who refuse to strive for such lofty eco-moral status, we'll regretfully have to mandate certain state controls on their behavior. You inconveniently left that part out, but we knew it was coming. It's always coming when the left get's to prescribing solutions for our "crises".

[sailaway21]

Al Gore is just a piker. All he really wants is a Jimmy Carter-like eco status, enough dough to keep the lights on at the castle, and perhaps a villa like the one Bill and Hillary are building in the Dominican Republic, I believe.

The real money is to be made by those evil corporations, who really don't care if there's a problem or not as long as there's good money in it. Sort of like asking shipyards if they're in favor of double-hulled tankers. Sure, let's build a bunch of 'em.

Here's a story about one of those corporations. If you need further convincing, just flip the TV on tomorrow and watch the commercials during "Meet the Press". If you get that warm and fuzzy feeling about a certain advertizer then you'll know the story below is not only true, but that it's working.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...een_fraud.html

[camaraderie]

Sailormann Let me respond to each of your statements:

But - that doesn't make it any less true that the polar ice caps are getting smaller
The polar ice caps are NOT getting smaller. What you have read about is the summer ice in the NORTH being at historic lows since measurement s were started in the 1970's. Not a whole lot of time in terms of climate science and it discounts the fact that reports of similar levels of "low ice" were made in the early 1900's-1930's. It also discounts the FACT that ice on the SOUTH pole this year is at near RECORD HIGHS. This is not a GLOBAL phenomena...it is a LOCAL phenomena.
, the weather is getting a little weirder and a lot of lakes are drying up.
C'mon...EVERY year has its' own wierd weather and I can remember joking about nuclear winter just a few years ago. There is simply no evidence of wierd weather patterns or an increase in wierd weather. You must KNOW that the lakes have been at lower levels before and things like larger population bases withdrawing more water from the system are more likely explanations than global warming that can't even be reliably measured.

I have no idea if this is merely a cyclical thing that's occurring or if we should expect the sky to fall in next Tuesday. Agree!

What I do know is that the burning of fossil fuels to generate energy increases the amount of carbon dioxide (CO) in the atmosphere, and that the CO levels in the air are higher than they have been in my lifetime. This true. Carbon dioxide is GOOD for living things. Increasing amounts in the atmosphere have LESS and LESS forcing influence on temperature rise. Benefits of higher CO2 are increased tree and crop growth. It is NOT a pollutant. No one would argue that cars pollute the air and that driving less or driving cleaner cars would be good...that is not the issue here. CO2 and climate is the issue here.
I don't think that this is a good thing, so I try to use less energy, burn less gas and just generally waste less stuff than I used to. Good for you, I think we should all try to do the same. Living on a cruising sailboat is good practice for this! Just don't have the government tell me what is right for me and use it to justify taxing me.
I don't need a comprehensive bio-meterological model to tell me that conservation is a good idea, it's pretty basic logic. Conservation GOOD...Coercion BAD!!

So if I can inconvenience myself a tad in order to help the general health of the planet, without knowing exactly what degree of perpetuation of chaotic theory will need to be applied in order to decipher current patterns, then why can't you inconvenience yourself a little too ???
Have you actually READ what it will take just to achieve the Kyoto protocols in terms of money and altered lifestyles? Do you understand that the Kyoto protocols are estimated to have LESS than 1/10th of a degree impact on temperatures in 2100 even if fully implemented? We are talking about more than inconvenience here. We are talking about a massive change in life on earth in the developed world AND a massive transfer of wealth in pursuit of a solution to a non-existent problem.

By all means...lets keep the pressure on to increase fuel economy and reduce pollution, develop alternate clean energy, keep the oceans clean and act as good stewards of our environment...as individuals. And lets hold our governments accountable for similar choices.

[Sailormann]

Give 'em the old morality play. Human nature is perfectable, I'm perfecting mine, why don't you try to perfect your's?

Well ???? Why don't you ???

But since there are certain troglodytes out there who refuse to strive for such lofty eco-moral status, we'll regretfully have to mandate certain state controls on their behavior.

We prefer the term "aging Republican" to "troglodyte" but I guess it's really splitting hairs ..

You inconveniently left that part out, but we knew it was coming. It's always coming when the left get's to prescribing solutions for our "crises".

I don't know if it's a solution or not. All I know is that it's common sense. Don't expect me to ever stop advocating what I believe to be right. I don't ask that of you.