Global Warming Debate

[camaraderie]

Chuck...you are correct about data being needed. A little checking around produced this:
forests.JPG

The current forest area in the United States is 749
million acres, or about one-third of the Nation’s land
area. The U.S. forest area was about 1 billion acres at
the time of European settlement. Of the total forest
land loss of 300 million acres, most (nearly 200 million
acres) occurred in the East (North and South regions)
between 1850 and 1900, with the loss consisting predominantly
of broadleaf forest cleared for agriculture.
For the last 100 years, the total forest area has been
relatively stable, while the U.S. population has more
than doubled.
Source: US Forest Service National Report on Sustainable Forests 2003
http://www.fs.fed.us/research/sustai...bleForests.pdf
********

While it appears as though our forests are in no danger (though the issue is complex)...they appear to be 30% smaller than in colonial days. I was rather surprised by this since I had heard statements like Sway's a number of times. I wonder where that comes from? Any opposing data gents?

[chucklesR]

Cam,
Thanks.
My point precisely, facts - not things we've heard or suppositions
- and I'm quite sure someone will find some to the contrary.

I personally find it hard to believe someone has a accurate count of trees or square footage of trees in North America from 1650 - seems to me what was in 1650 the 'modern' world a) didn't exist and b) didn't even have a map -yet alone a count of trees, bees, or temperatures for that matter.

[camaraderie]

Well...my guess is we have scientific ways to figure that out with some accuracy Chuck...just as we can cabon date the Shroud of Turin...my guess is we can look at layers of soil, etc. just as we do ice cores and tell a lot about the environment at a given small time period. i.e. Chestnut shells found beneath a foundation of a 1700 era house might indicate the forest was cleared to build the house. Absent contrary scientific opinion I tend to believe the data...and I have not found any contrary data in my own little search on this issue. Accurate? Probably not...but given the stated 30% differential...it seems safe to assume that a rather significant deforestation took place from settlement till the mid 1800's...whether it was 28% or 33% probably doesn't mean much anyway. The good news is that with satellites we can really be quite precise now...and things seem to be improving a bit in THIS country forest-wise. A little research into what the Chinese are doing elsewhere though does give one pause. And we are buying THAT wood instead of using our own.

[sailaway21]

chucklesr and cam,
I'd certainly agree with your point on statistics and, in fact, find it interesting that Cam's graph purports to show the amount of forestation dating back to the 1600's in areas that we have literally no history of. I'll certainly endeavor to re-research where I'd read the statements on trees.

My original comment was on the desirability of using bamboo so as to not deplete our forestry assets, a comment made in the link provided. Since the vast majority of our timber consumed is purpose grown for it's final usage I found the statement baffling. Current forestry practises regard trees as an agricultural resource much like any other; one that must be harvested and then replanted. I see no danger in our running out of wood product supply materials.

[artbyjody]

Originally Posted by sailaway21

one that must be harvested and then replanted. I see no danger in our running out of wood product supply materials.

The issue is not if we run out of wood product - but the fact that its the Old Growth that does the best for CO2 absorption...Which is one of the causes of concern in the Amazon as well - as the Amazon forest scrubs more CO2 than the rest of the world combined and is responsible for something like 90% of the oxygen supply on this planet...(how people come up with those stats though - this comes from a Discovery Channel documentary on their "Planet Earth Series")....

[sailaway21]

Arty,
We're starting new Old Growth all the time. Got a couple in my front yard right now with more on the way!

[denby]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

More NEW Global Un-Warming News:

Sun's low magnetic activity may portend an ice age

The Canadian Space Agency’s radio telescope has been reporting Flux Density Values so low they will mean a mini ice age if they continue.
Like the number of sunspots, the Flux Density Values reflect the Sun’s magnetic activity, which affects the rate at which the Sun radiates energy and warmth. CSA project director Ken Tapping calls the radio telescope that supplies NASA and the rest of the world with daily values of the Sun’s magnetic activity a “stethoscope on the Sun”. In this case, however, it is the “doctor” whose health is directly affected by the readings.
This is because when the magnetic activity is low, the Sun is dimmer, and puts out less radiant warmth. If the Sun goes into dim mode, as it has in the past, the Earth gets much colder.
Full story and data here:
http://www.britsattheirbest.com/001645.php

Cam,
Thats all well and good, but come on, what does the sun have to do with global warming? It's all our fault, don't you hear the mantra, man causes GW especially the US. Manbearpig is for real.

[denby]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

Chuck...you are correct about data being needed. A little checking around produced this:
Attachment 982

The current forest area in the United States is 749
million acres, or about one-third of the Nation’s land
area. The U.S. forest area was about 1 billion acres at
the time of European settlement. Of the total forest
land loss of 300 million acres, most (nearly 200 million
acres) occurred in the East (North and South regions)
between 1850 and 1900, with the loss consisting predominantly
of broadleaf forest cleared for agriculture.
For the last 100 years, the total forest area has been
relatively stable, while the U.S. population has more
than doubled.
Source: US Forest Service National Report on Sustainable Forests 2003
http://www.fs.fed.us/research/sustai...bleForests.pdf
********

While it appears as though our forests are in no danger (though the issue is complex)...they appear to be 30% smaller than in colonial days. I was rather surprised by this since I had heard statements like Sway's a number of times. I wonder where that comes from? Any opposing data gents?

I can speak for the north east especially Connecticut 1900 Connecticut was 80% clear cut, mostly farm land, now it's 80% forest. We now have bear, moose and deer which have been a problem for about 40 years.

[poopdeckpappy]

Originally Posted by artbyjody

- as the Amazon forest scrubs more CO2 than the rest of the world combined

it is estimated that vegetation stores 600,000,000,000 tons of CO2. while surface water store about 1,020,000,000,000,000 tons of CO2, with the deep waters of the oceans storing 40,000,000,000 tons of CO2.

and is responsible for something like 90% of the oxygen supply on this planet...

It is estimated that between 70% and 80% of the oxygen in the atmosphere is produced by marine plants

[sailboy21]

Originally Posted by poopdeckpappy

it is estimated that vegetation stores 600,000,000,000 tons of CO2. while surface water store about 1,020,000,000,000,000 tons of CO2, with the deep waters of the oceans storing 40,000,000,000 tons of CO2.

It is estimated that between 70% and 80% of the oxygen in the atmosphere is produced by marine plants

I hate this thread.. but those numbers are probably more close to reality (I studied paleoclimatology as a minor in college). artbyjody's number for the rain forest probably comes from a quote like "of all rainforests in the world the amazon absorbs 90% of the LIFE GIVING CO2 gas" or something like that.. The oceans are by FAR the most important factor ON EARTH in considering what mechanisms affect global climate.. too bad we are destroying them in so many nearly irreversible ways.. and its not due to CO2 emissions.. Maybe if everyone tunes their SSB to the same freq and sends out a planetary SOS at the same time, someone out there will hear and come fix our problems, cause it sure ain't happening here. Anyone remember Seaquest DSV? they had giant CO2 scrubbers and some terrorist was going to blow them up to kill everyone.. a perfect segway to the plot of "Space Balls"