Global Warming Debate

[chucklesR]

Then the prize would be worth the effort, you get what you pay for.

[PBzeer]

Originally Posted by chucklesR

Then the prize would be worth the effort, you get what you pay for.

Shouldn't that be in one of Sailhog's threads?

[denby]

Originally Posted by PBzeer

If we get a consensus that Sway is right, does that mean he is?

AH, isn't Sway always right?

[sailaway21]

chuckles,
I'm sorry you failed to see the point, especially given your previous post cited. My error in implying that every half hour saw a ULCC of 600,000. I should have said a VLCC or ULCC, and will stand by the statement of about every half hour. As to only four in excess of 400,000tons being built, you can start with Globtik tankers and work your way forward, i think they're on about their sixth generation of ULCC's. I'll wait for a further dissertation on your part as to how this is anything other than a seriously large amount of crude oil. An amount that, for most, boggles the mind.

Your familiarity with the term neo-con appears limited, and it's certainly never been applied to Mr. Will who is generally regarded as a traditional conservative. The neo-con movement is generally regarded as starting with Irving Kristol and Commentary's John Pohdhoretz (sp) who were some of the first conservatives to espouse an interventionist foreign policy and nation-building, something Mr. Will and other more paleo-cons have generally avoided. The neo-cons cam from a more socially liberal background, often jewish and marxist, and disillusionment with fascist communism drew them to a conservatism of strong defense, anti-communist, pro-capitalist strains.

Mr. Will makes the point, which I'd of thought you'd have gleaned from your earlier post, that we're going to need a serious amount of acreage to even begin to grow crops for bio-fuels. Hence the backyard illustration. and the resultant economics of this is going to make everything that corn, or certain other crops, touch very expense while making fuel, even subsidized fuel, very expensive and less efficient than oil. Hence the car reference.

While I might not have expected you to get the supertanker reference, I'd certainly have hoped that you'd cotton on to the energy implications.

For more on the founding "godfather" of neo-conservatism I'd recommend, "Reflections of a Neoconservative-Looking Back, Looking Ahead" by Irving Kristol, Basic Books, 1983.

For more on supertankers, albeit dated, when they carried only 200,000dwt, I'd recommend, "Supership" by Noel Mostert, AA Knopf, 1974. or you could go here: http://supertankers.topcities.com/id319.htm Wikipedia being rather less than reliable on matters maritime. The link may well give you a perspective on the size vessels being discussed, there being no North American port that can accomodate them with the sole exception of the disused Gulf docks at Canso.

[sailaway21]

Here's a partial list of just the ULCC's: http://supertankers.topcities.com/id19.htm

[chucklesR]

S'way,
Granted I don't know the definition of 'neocon', obviously not as well as you do. It's not generally something I would read a book on. Frankly I miss-used the term as I tend to call extreme one side or the other talking heads names by generic names.


I get the reference now to Will's article, we are I think on the same page, singing the same song on that issue - sorry I found the reference obscure.

Re: super tankers, I followed your link - it had nothing relating to dwt, just pictures of a tanker being built. Seen 'em before.
I've been in the Gulf many times (3 deployments), seen the tankers before (leaving full, coming back empty) during the first gulf war ( Desert Storm etc..).
Yep, them boats were in fact big. I was on the USS America at the time, CV 66 - which while only a little under 1000 ft long weighed in at a paltry 90k tons or so. Size however is comparable.
I'll stand by my wikipedia reference as I've not been able to find a single reference, anywhere, to ANY single ship over 600,000 tons DWT. I include looking here: http://supertankers.topcities.com/id19.htm
The Gobtik tankers you refer to were in the 484,000 dwt range and as far as I can tell none are currently in the tanker business.

I did find these referred to:
Battilus 553,662 dwt 1976 - 1985
Bellamya 553,662 dwt 1976 - 1986
Pierre Guillaumat 555,051 dwt 1977 - 1983 largest ship ever constructed as designed
Esso Atlantic 516,000 dwt 1977 - 2002
Esso Pacific 516 dwt 1977 - 2002
Prairial 554,974 dwt 1979 - 2003

Note none are in service at this time.
so googled the name of the biggest and got (in part) this history:
http://www.shipsonstamps.org/Topics/html/tanker.htm
* 1980 Hong Kong ship owner C.Y.Tung’s ‘Seawise Giant’ with 564,839 DWT is the largest tanker and the largest man-made structure in the world. After just two voyages goes into layup and serves as storage vessel later on. Sold to Norway and re-named ‘Jahre Viking’. Specs: Length 1,504’, beam 226’, draft 98’, 260,851 GRT, 13 knots.
* 1980-88 Gulf War between Iran and Iraq, tankers under attack.
* 1984 210 tankers are in layup, representing 43% of the world’s tanker fleet. ULCCs have become uneconomical.
* 1986 To this date 283 VLCCs have been sold for scrap.
* 1987 Supply and demand for tankers have found their balance; oil prices and freight rates are on the increase.
* 1992 Again a surplus of VLCCs on the market. Freight rates sinking again.
* 1996 The 1,000th VLCC is being delivered, the ‘Meridian Lion’. Altogether six vessels with more than 500,000 DWT have been constructed over the last 20 years.


The history went on to say that ULCC's are pretty much not in fashion anymore. It was dated through 2003.

You got something that says since 2003 they not only came back in fashion but are in fact getting even bigger?

[sailaway21]

No, but I'd sure appreciate it if you'd spot me the 50,000 tons! (g)

[chucklesR]

On the 6 tankers over 500,000 dwt - sure. How you gonna run them through the straight every half hour - to their delivery point and back?

Oh wait, NONE of those are still in the oil business, So even if I could it'd be moot.

I don't mean to rag ya on it - just I having been there and watched and written the logs, done the messages etc.. of what passed us, I never once in about 10 months of duty saw a ULCC logged at over 400,000 so when you said 600's every half hour I had to look and see if the world had changed.
Lo and behold, no it had not.

[PBzeer]

But Chuckles, the world HAS changed. We are in the midst of a man-made disaster called Global Warming. Just ask Algore, nothing will ever be the same again. He is so convinced of this, he is contributing to the process as much as he can so he can tell the rest of us not to.

[camaraderie]

What is getting really scary is that all of the potential prez candidates believe in GW and will "do something about it".