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  #1091 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sck5 View Post
chuckles

"moth to a flame"

I know. Why do I do it? You guys are just impossible to convince.
Maybe when you present an argument that isn't self-refuting or ignores inconvenient facts, you'll convince us....
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  #1092 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sck5 View Post
And maybe you guys will benefit from talking to an actual lib rather than a hypothetical handwringing guilt ridden whiner.
What's the difference, or do you know enough not refer to that other motivation that's so prevalent on your side, namely, an obsession with controlling others?
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  #1093 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Since when did america become the world of 'gimme' instead of 'I can do that'?
When the two were equivocated by the systematic attack on the idea that we can know anything with certainty.
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  #1094 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2008
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Why vote for Obama?

1. To get out of Iraq (instead of fighting even more wars which seems likely with Mr. M)

2. To get a sensible health insurance system in this country. EVERY other industrialized country pays way less than we do and has better outcomes. Most or all of the scare mongering from opponents has been debunked (e.g. see above on wait times)

3. He is smart. Harvard Law Review editor is a position you get for being the smartest law student at Harvard. We could use smart for a change.

4. He is a liberal - Didnt you notice? As a liberal myself, I would far rather vote for a liberal than Mr. M.

5. To restore honor to our international relations. I dont expect people on this site to understand that, but I would like to be proud of my country when my President goes overseas instead of cringing at the ridiculous things he says.

And yes, I would probably vote against almost any Republican this year. McCain is actually an honorable man who would be a vast improvement over Bush. But he is hated by many in his party for failure to toe the party line on everything.

But the real issue is that I am very worried about our democracy when there is a party that apparently is perfectly OK with a President who brazenly announces at each bill signing that he doesnt have to obey the law if he decides not to. That strikes at the very basis of our democracy - EVERYONE has to obey the law. That is why the call it the EXECUTIVE branch - The President swears to "faithfully execute the laws". And Bush thinks he is above that. What would those congressional republicans think if a Dem were the one ignoring the law? I wish they would focus on that thought for a minute.

The way our system is supposed to work is that the President obeys the law and does whatever he feels is right WITHIN THE LAW and that he can get Congress to pay for. If he doesnt like that he can go campaign for people to tell their congressmen to do what he wants or to elect new congressmen. But the President isnt a king and the current Republicans in Washington dont seem to understand that. So I want them out of power so they can think about it for a while.

I am actually a lib who thinks this country NEEDS a Republican party. The liberal impulses of the Dems, if left unchecked by the business sense of the Republicans (or at least the OLD republican party - dont get me started on the fiscal irresponsibility of the current crowd) would tend to go way too far. Just look at some of the cities and towns where there is no effective opposition to the party in power - they tend to go off the deep end of whatever side they are on.

So I am NOT somebody who has always opposed Republicans in a kneejerk way. But this year I feel pretty strongly about it. That is why I am so happy that Obama will beat McCain like a drum!!!!
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  #1095 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sck5 View Post
Why vote for Obama?
2. To get a sensible health insurance system in this country. EVERY other industrialized country pays way less than we do and has better outcomes. Most or all of the scare mongering from opponents has been debunked (e.g. see above on wait times)
A pure lie, that you either are too naive to dismiss or worse...

Quote:
3. He is smart. Harvard Law Review editor is a position you get for being the smartest law student at Harvard. We could use smart for a change.
Smarts ain't enough. History is full of smart, destructive figures.

Quote:
5. To restore honor to our international relations. I dont expect people on this site to understand that, but I would like to be proud of my country when my President goes overseas instead of cringing at the ridiculous things he says.
Oh we get it. We just know that popularity isn't a gauge of validity, and that if the world condemns what we've done Re Iraq, well, the world has bigger problems than worrying about what we're doing to someone else.

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But the real issue is that I am very worried about our democracy when there is a party that apparently is perfectly OK with a President who brazenly announces at each bill signing that he doesnt have to obey the law if he decides not to.
You know the Village Voice no longer has the gravitas it had in the 60s and 70s, right?

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So I am NOT somebody who has always opposed Republicans in a kneejerk way.
No, it's probably a far more immediate a response.

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That is why I am so happy that Obama will beat McCain like a drum!!!!
Probably, but what does that prove Re the validity of your POVs?

Last edited by RAGNAR : 02-20-2008 at 03:07 PM.
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  #1096 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2008
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chuckles

So I am paying for your health insurance. You goddam FREELOADER. You are partaking of a SOCIALIST health care system? But you dont want others to have it too? Shame on you. Congrats for being in the navy long enough to retire well though.

Actually, health care (editing - I should say health INSURANCE) is one area where the private sector can be counted on to do a worse job than a properly run govt. system. Thats why Medicare has a very low overhead (less than 5%) compared to the private sector (a third or more) because the private sector has an incentive to weed out all really sick people from their system - i.e. the people who actually need it. It is also why our health care outcomes rank somewhere right near Costa Rica (no joke, look it up) while we pay much more than any other industrialized country. I am no socialist but it is just plain silly to think that the private sector is ALWAYS better at providing goods. If you doubt it, go look at any intro economics text and look at the section on "public goods". Even right wing economists like Milton Friedman dont think that the market can solve every problem there is.

Last edited by sck5 : 02-20-2008 at 03:17 PM.
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  #1097 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2008
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Ragnar

Actually I really do know where I live. I may be in a trance but my location isnt proof of that. It really is three hours to Canada from here. Believe it or not, I have actually gone there. Canadians are rather nice. And they seem healthy too!! Not only that, but their dollar is worth the same or more than ours nowadays. How did THAT happen? Oh, I know. The Republicans got in charge of both Congress and the Presidency and had the fiscal sense of a drunk Latin American dictator.

Obama for Prez!!!

Last edited by sck5 : 02-20-2008 at 03:15 PM.
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  #1098 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2008
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Here is a political statement that I hope ALL here on this thread will agree is a good thing for the USA

Hillary Clinton is not going to be President!!!!
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  #1099 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sck5 View Post
So I am paying for your health insurance. You goddam FREELOADER. You are partaking of a SOCIALIST health care system? But you dont want others to have it too? Shame on you.
You contracted with him. If anything you screwed him over, as the healthcare he gets isn't as good as it would be if he worked elsewhere.

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Actually, health care is one area where the private sector can be counted on to do a worse job than a properly run govt. system.
OK, I'm beginning to think you're a bot.

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Thats why Medicare has a very low overhead (less than 5%) compared to the private sector (a third or more) because the private sector has an incentive to weed out all really sick people from their system - i.e. the people who actually need it.
????

Further, the so-called private sector is being used to redistribute wealth. It's the mechanism that covers the coverage mandated by law for an enormous % of the uncovered.

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It is also why our health care outcomes rank somewhere right near Costa Rica (no joke, look it up) while we pay much more than any other industrialized country.
10:1 that's an erroneous stat, or you're taking it out of context.

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I am no socialist
Thanks for the comic relief.

Quote:
but it is just plain silly to think that the private sector is ALWAYS better at providing goods.
Yet it does.

Quote:
If you doubt it, go look at any intro economics text and look at the section on "public goods". Even right wing economists like Milton Friedman dont think that the market can solve every problem there is.
All the private sector has to do to be better than the other option is be better than the other option, and it is. Further, taxing to do it better is hardly just.

Last edited by RAGNAR : 02-20-2008 at 03:21 PM.
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  #1100 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sck5 View Post
Ragnar

Actually I really do know where I live. It really is three hours to Canada from here. Believe it or not, I have actually gone there.
So you're nowhere near Ground Zero, something you implied when it suited you. (Not imply that being here gives anyone a better understanding of the relevant issues.)
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