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  #601 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2008
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Hey Sway... The 500lb parrot in the room is socialized medicine and Social Security

My PRIVATE insurance just went from $511 a month to $613 a month with NO claims in the prior 2 years AND a $5k deductible. If this is reflective of what is going on with others...socialized medicine may be the defining issue of the Presidential campaign....and it is a loser for repubs I'm afraid. We can talk about the evils of government in medicine...but that may simply be trumped by the knowledge that what we have at present is broken.
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  #602 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2008
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My thoughts on the current troubles in medicine are this ...

They had their chance. That's what it comes down to. Medicine, hospital stays, medical insurance, and all the rest has been skyrocketing in cost for a very long time. All along people have complained about it, all along doctors blamed HMO's, HMO's blamed drug manufacturers, HMO's blamed doctors, insurance companies in general blamed the high cost of equipment and facilities, everybody basically goes around blaming everybody else. Meanwhile drug companies are bringing in record profits, you can't turn on the television without seeing another useless drug advertisement, and everybody even remotely associated with hospitals makes a killing compared to their equally educated contemporaries in other industries. It's all simply gotten out of control. It's gotten out of control AND they've had at LEAST 20 years to fix it, and they've been promising to fix it, and it only gets worse.

Now I'm all for free markets and capitalism. My philosophies are right in line with Republicans and free market folks when it comes to medicine, let the market work it out. EXCEPT the market can't seem to do that! It's simply not a commodity like rice or steel beams or cars, everyone actually needs to have medical treatment sometimes, and we're talking about people's lives. We are ending up with a system where a lot of people die needlessly, it's broken, and nobody in the industry seems to be trying to figure out how to fix it.

So ... yeah, as much as I hate to see it happen, government really is going to have to get involved. It's simply not fixing itself. And I'm as afraid as anyone else that government is going to screw it up even worse. But something has got to be done about it. The costs are going completely unchecked and there is no end in sight, it seems to know no direction but UP, and in wild amounts.

I really don't mind the government getting involved at this point because it's not like this just started yesterday, it's gotten progressively worse over a long period of time. The medical community has had ample time to work out it's problems, and it could have if it really wanted to. But people's lives have become purely about money now, and that's just wrong. There are certain "industries" I just don't think the American people feel comfortable with when capitalists are in charge, their doctors and medicine being one, and the church being another. Yes, by all means let the capitalists make automobiles and x-ray machines and all the rest, but whether some kid gets cancer treatment simply isn't a bottom line type of decision, and that's all it's become.

Capitalists had their chance and they blew it.

Americans have been really understanding with the market on all of this for a very long time, but I think that the medical community has pushed people too far and that the American people's patience has come to an end. Something simply has to be done about it. It can't stay broken.
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Last edited by wind_magic : 01-21-2008 at 01:26 AM. Reason: grammar and spelling
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  #603 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2008
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Government created the problem in the age of wage controls during WWII. The employer could not give the employee a raise but he could give him health insurance. I fail to see how government run helath care is going to make the providing of health care more effective or cheaper. If you receive a health insurance policy from your company you are a slave to what policy your company can afford to provide and the terms of that policy's coverage. Automobiles have gotten progressively more expensive, and more expensive to fix, and yet we have not seen the skyrocketing of insurance premiums we've seen in the medical field. The consumer has control of his auto insurance costs in a way he does not with medical insurance, and there's competition for his business. We all try to become parts of a group insurance plan and, by doing so, we become part of the problem. Costs will continue to skyrocket until each individual is personally in charge of his own insurance, as in autos. At that point the insurance companies will be unable to assign an employer a premium and tack on a profit based upon actuarial tables, and be forced to compete for each of our business individually. Remember when the phone long distance service was deregulated? You got a call every 15 minutes with a better offer.

There would also need to be a "pool", just as in auto insurance, for high risk patients/drivers. Meating that need is the challenge in auto insurance and it would be so in health insurance.

Those obscene profits are what allow those drug companies to research and develop new drugs. Fixing the prices as Canada does just ensures there will not be a pharmaceutical industry in Canada. If no one has noticed, it should be pointed out that all of the pharmaceutical companies are located within the US, regardless of their country of origin. Developing their products within the US is the only way that they can currently make a return on investment in research. The high prices we pay are directly attributable to the fixing of prices overseas. the drug companies sell overseas because it's better to make a little money than no money at all, especially on a product that has a limited patent life/profitability life.

windy is right. It is broken. And government must address it. How they choose to do that is the $64 question. I don't think that more government involvement is the answer, in fact, I think that government is the problem. As PJ O'Rourke says, "You think health care is expensive now? Just wait until it's free!".
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  #604 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2008
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Sway...while I agree entirely with you on this... Do you think the general electorate has even prayer of buying that argumnt VS. "mommy care"?
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  #605 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2008
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"Buying" the arguement, they're lucky to even hear it. In an era of soundbites and slogans, it's not what makes the most sense, but what sounds the best.
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  #606 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2008
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On healthcare reform ..

Instead of letting the U.S. government fix it, let's let the U.S. MILITARY fix it.

The military doesn't do everything well, but they do a pretty good job of keeping their troops alive. Let's see what they can do when the health of the entire population of the United States becomes their responsibility.

Of course someone might have to shoot you before you can see a doctor .. lol



(yes I'm joking)
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Last edited by wind_magic : 01-21-2008 at 01:10 PM. Reason: to make sure it was obvious I was joking lol ...
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  #607 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2008
sailaway21 sailaway21 is offline
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Cam,
I suppose they'd have to have a champion for their cause to adequately enunciate the plan. I'm not sure the discontent is yet high enough for that man or woman to get a fair hearing. Anotherwords, things have got to get worse before there's a chance they'll get better. It would hurt very little if such a discussion, in a voluble way, were to emanate from the Republican party in this election season.
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  #608 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2008
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Hillary scares the hell outta me. If she was going to build a fence to protect the borders, she'd build it so low that she could stand on both sides. She's never met an issue that has firm enough poll numbers for her to buy into. but hey, at least she's on both sides.

Barak isn't on either side. He was a state legislator for one term (with no name on any bill) and he's only been in the Senate 2 years. Change? what change, tell me what you're going to change, and how you plan on getting that done. Don't give me the BS about "have high level meetings". Meetings are the best way of not getting a damn thing done, except for perhaps scheduling another meeting.

They're even trying to "out black" each other.
I saw Baraks appearence at the Ebanezer baptist church on c-span. I would be embarrased for him if I supported him.
His mannerisms made him look like a statue, barely clapping in time with the choir, stonefaced.
When he spoke, his speech patterns reminded me of MLK, the halting, slow southern drawl quite evident.
Compare these two....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kf0x_TpDris
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5ZSY2YG-cSk&feature=user

Sounds like two different people... just who the hell are you Barak? Which one is you???

Edwards hasn't got a snowballs chance. 400.00 haircuts, 26,000 sq.ft, 6 million dollar house, and "he feels the poors pain". Only when they're cuttin his lawn. "There are two America's", is probably the single stupidest thing he can keep saying. The class warfare argument isn't going to wash, and its pissin' off both the poor, and the rich.

I don't delude myself into thinking Mitt is much of a republican either. He is quite a venture capitalist, made a ton o'money, great bidness man. Knows how to be a corp. raider too. I think he was able to be a success by his business savvy by knowing what and when to buy, and what to do with the company once he bought it. Thats his appeal. Thats also his downfall. As a business man, he was able to call the shots, he was able to say, we'll play by my rules 'cuz its my ball. He won't be able to do that in D.C. He wasn't able to do it all that well in Mass. He had to bend to the will of the Dems, just to save some face. I think he'd have the hair to pull the trigger, but I don't know if he'd know who to call. (meaning his international exposure a little weak)
He's handsome enough, just doesn't have that "passion" for me when he speaks.

Mike is a "good ol' boy", serves him well, he's able to cajole and smile his way thru while sliding things in the bcak door, thats just how its done down here in the south. Been that way for generations. We've had too much however of the "aww shucks" presidents from Arkansas. They're about dead last in every area, education, health care, social reform, taxes... And he's not slick willy enough to smile his way past that and some of his policies.

Rudy is done. His "Look what I did as mayor of NY" got old, quick. People in Boise or Chicago don't give a rats azz about NYC. I don't think he'd be stupid enough to say that in Dallas. I think they'd run him out of town on a rail. People think he did alright in putting the city back together after 9/11, but thats a one time thing. He'll dp ok in FLorida because of the sno-bird vote, but I think thats going to be it for him.

McCain is the "Mr. Steady as she goes". guy. I might not like all of his policies, in fact, i don't like a lot of his policies. But, He's got international experience, knows how to get stuff pushed thru congress (good idea or not) and he's still got the war hero thing going for him.

Fred. Dammit Fred, get in the game, maverick, do some of that pilot ****, man (top gun).
Fred is decent choice. I like what he says. I believe him. i think others in the world will too. I can imagine a phone call to the saudi king about some whack-job that they're supporting and after the phone call, the saudi says to one of his wives... "that crazy american just told me what I needed to do, and I think he meant it". He's been around just as long as McCain, knows the back alleys of congress just as well as McCain, and I think he could insprie people to a level we haven't seen since Reagan. Can He, yes... will He... He'd better start.

i think McCain or Fred can beat whomever the dems throw at 'em. I think any of the top 4 of the GOP can beat Barak.

Barak is going to be "change, change, change"
Hillary is running against bush, until the polls tell her to stop. What then? who knows. When she starts to get her toes stepped on by the other side, she'll throw out the gender card (already has in NH) and try to make the other side look "mean"
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Last edited by cardiacpaul : 01-21-2008 at 08:07 PM.
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  #609 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2008
sailaway21 sailaway21 is offline
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Well, Fred's out. Not so's anybody would notice mind you. I'll admit that a canidate who really has other things he'd rather be doing than campaigning has a certain attraction to me, but Fred might have taken this a bit too far. He and McCain are close personal friends and I can only hope that that does not lead to a McCain endorsement. Romney is now officially my canidate.

More on the Fred non-canidacy: http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12624
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Old 01-23-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardiacpaul View Post
Hillary scares the hell outta me. If she was going to build a fence to protect the borders, she'd build it so low that she could stand on both sides.
It should scare you - the only reason to build a fence that small is that one can flash their breasts without having to stand on a ladder - and uggghhhh I rather Giu flash his than hers any day
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