tdw... says that this place is a hotbed of Right Wing Wackos...

[PBzeer]

Ahhhhh, but you see, the Bible is the Word of God, as interpeted by man. That, I think, is one thing that tends to get overlooked. And while the Bible, is in the main, a historical tome, Revelations would have to be considered differently, as it would be more of a prophetic missive, rather than narrative.

The way I see it, without a belief in some higher power than mankind, your moral compass would be subject to large amounts of deviation, because you have no standard by which to swing it. For me, that is the essence of religion. To provide a higher standard than the imperfections of the human condition.

[captainchetco]

Ok! Before we went into Iraq, while all the congressional liberals, and other neuvo opposers were chanting "Invade Iraq" I wrote to all my friends that we were wrong to invade.
My exact words have drifted away, but basically, I said:
"It is wrong and immoral to invade another country on the premise they may someday become a threat. If they are not immediately threatening, it is not up to us to change someone else' government. And what if we don't find WMD? we will look like a bunch of idiots and warmongers in the eyes of the world."

Did I call it or what? I'm very annoyed at those who claim they were lied to by the Bush administration. Have you forgotten that exPres Clinton verified the Bush position on WMDs? Have you forgotten that Germany and France loudly proclaimed they did not agree with our assessment? Have you forgotten that the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, get the same intelligence data as the President?
It is not accurate to say that Bush lied and that mislead all these political hacks. They went into it because they thought it was what the vox populi favored. Certainly the media gave them that impression. The whole lot of them including Bush lost their Moral Compass. In spite of Washington and the media, there are a lot of people who can think for themselves.

It is the shear immorality of the invasion itself that fires up the Moslem world, and much of the underlying reason that the American Public while resigned to accept the war, aren't really in favor of it.

The shame of it is as Sailingdog opines we are there now, and have a committment to the people of Iraq to at least mitigate the mess.

Our government should not involve religion, but if the Clintons, Kerrys and yes all the Christian right in Congress had listened to their own sense of morality, we would not have invaded Iraq and many thousands of people might not have died. Perhaps they would have overthrown Saddam themselves by now,,,, or maybe not, but it is not up to us to decide on another people's government.

[donrr1]

A lack of hard evidence might also be a compelling reason NOT to invade a sovereign nation.

Don

[tdw]

Originally Posted by PBzeer

Ahhhhh, but you see, the Bible is the Word of God, as interpeted by man. That, I think, is one thing that tends to get overlooked. And while the Bible, is in the main, a historical tome, Revelations would have to be considered differently, as it would be more of a prophetic missive, rather than narrative.

The way I see it, without a belief in some higher power than mankind, your moral compass would be subject to large amounts of deviation, because you have no standard by which to swing it. For me, that is the essence of religion. To provide a higher standard than the imperfections of the human condition.

However it's not just Revelation that is apropos to this argument. Daniel, Leviticus, Isaiah and Ezekiel are all books that tie in with the Revelation story. Harsh reality is that of all the books in the Bible Revelation is probably one of them that requires the most intense study. The problem with it is that , of course, it sets no time for those prophecies to be realised. For sure , one of the most troublesome quotes of Jesus refers to those very end times and states that the timing of the second coming would be within the lifetime of those he was talking to. This is of course a much debated statement for the obvious reasons.

Ironically of course those who spend so much time trying to predict the timing of the second coming are themselves going contrary to Christ's words as he stated quite clearly that the one thing about the Spanish Inquisition is that (oh dear , did I say Spanish Inquisition ? ) I meant of course the second coming is that no one would be expecting it.

Yes, the Bible is the supposed Word of God interpreted by man, but there comes a time when those who belief in it to stop waffling. Of course they won't because there is too much in there that goes against our way of life.

I agree with you again (shite, is there no end to my suffering oh Lord ?) that we need a set of moral principles to guide us but I happen to think that the teachings of one Gautama Buddha is a better place to start than any of the worlds leading religions including Bhuddism.

My basic tenet is however one of JC's "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." It works for me, unless we are talking...nah I can't say that , it would be rude. Lets just l eave it that there are some things I'd like done unto me that I have no desire to do unto others.

[PBzeer]

When I was in the Army back in 69-71, after reading Kipling's Kim, I asked a chaplin if good people who had no word of Christ went to hell. Though I don't recall his exact answer, it amounted to yes. I found this response to be unsatisfactory, as I did not believe that fit what I thought God was all about.

For myself, God is a two part harmony. On the one hand, is having a standard above the imperfections of man, knowing it is not in the attaining of that standard, but rather the effort put forth in trying. The other part is the concept of salvation. That I do indeed have a soul, a spirit, that is the essence of me, that will continue after my mortal remains have withered. That will be rewarded, or punished, not in some definite way, such as heaven or hell, or another turn upon the wheel, but that it will exist on a plane better or worse than the one it inhabits now.

I would identify myself as Christian, mainly because that is what I am familar with. But it is a non-demoninational identification, that is more about the foundation of belief, than the practice of it according to any specific dogma. Yet, I don't tailor make it to fit what I want to do. It's simply that I find no established sect to embody, what I believe. In the end, it comes down to one simple question ...... Do I like the person I see in the mirror?