I'm an ass, and full of crap

[T34C]

Originally Posted by sailaway21

Are we going to have fun in Chicago or what? (g)

Oh, you mean the trash CD- party!!!!???? That'll teach him to not show.

[Cruisingdad]

You know what, and I mean this with no disrespect to any friends in MI, but screw the auto companies! They get themselves in this predicament, then we help save them? Give me a break. What is the point of bailing out any and every freaking company that gets into troubles?

Tell ya what: WHen MY company has problems, I am calling Obama and I am going to tell him I am worth saving too.

What a crock. I cannot remember where I wrote it, but I told you guys that they would do this... they would bail out the banks, then the auto industry, etc. What's next? THe airlines?

- CD

[T34C]

Originally Posted by Cruisingdad

You know what, and I mean this with no disrespect to any friends in MI, but screw the auto companies! They get themselves in this predicament, then we help save them? Give me a break. What is the point of bailing out any and every freaking company that gets into troubles?

Tell ya what: WHen MY company has problems, I am calling Obama and I am going to tell him I am worth saving too.

What a crock. I cannot remember where I wrote it, but I told you guys that they would do this... they would bail out the banks, then the auto industry, etc. What's next? THe airlines?

- CD

I think the real way to read this is that they are bailing out the UAW. Democrats want to continue to lock-up those good 'ole union votes. How do you do that, you buy them.

OK, no more politics in here.

[sailingdog]

CD—

I think they already did the airlines at least once...

[TxLnghrn]

Unions had there place and time in American history, now they need to be history. They blackmail companies, protect the incompetent, and push the cost of production through the roof for industry. The real answer as for why companies are outsourcing is unions. Most industry would be glad to keep the jobs "at home" if they didn't have to deal with unions demanding 160K/yr for longshoremen whose jobs basically involve nothing more than data entry (container xxyyzz going on truck aabbcc). Starting costs of 5k on every vehicle produced to pay for pensions/benefits on retired workers etc... etc... etc.... Look at every industry that has received a bailout in the past years and you will see unions or government employees (read unions) at there employee base.
Michael

[xort]

I do not care for unions, I resigned with a lot of grief & threats from one.
But I think you need to think twice about a bankrupt GM/Ford/Chrysler.
The ripple effect will be significant. As one example, they buy more computer processors than any other entity in the world. Hundreds of thousands of people will loose jobs as suppliers fold.

The only problem with GM right now is they cannot get credit to carry them over the downturn. They have survived every other downturn by borrowing short term money that carried them through. The same would apply this time except nobody is lending.

I hope you are prepared to see the state of Michigan go into receivership. That will be a much bigger bailout than anything proposed right now.
And, there is a pension guarantee setup by the feds. So if GM/Ford/Chrysler cannot make their pension payments, YOU WILL.

[sailingdog]

Originally Posted by T34C

You mean there's a difference????

Yeah, MacGregors move faster under power.

[sailaway21]

CD,
First off let's establish the fact that you have no friends, least of all in Michigan. And the future ain't lookin' bright neither!

That being said, you're of course correct, and had you been doing a proper job of moderating you'd have known so from the market thread. But hey, you're probably still wobbly from that offshore experience on your Catalina.

I really ought to get serious here, if just for a moment. The auto industry is just the most prominent of those with their hand out. The mayor of Philadelphia, that'd be the Philadelphia that just helped finance a new football stadium, has his hand out while closing libraries and laying off firemen. I just posted a thread on how NYC needs help even though they're providing, on average, over $30,000 to homeless single mothers just for housing...private housing. And they all need help. Lets not even get into California's needs.

And it's all BS and will not stop if a dime is seen as possibly changing hands. Actually, the auto industry could use the opportunity of bankruptcy to restructure itself. It sure needs it. Giving them money is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys...to paraphrase PJ O'Rourke. The more sensible talk going on right now is centered around a structured bankruptcy. Regardless, it means a tremendous upheaval in the American auto industry. An upheaval that is needed. You know why the Chrysler bail out in the eighties was a failure, even though the government got paid back and made a profit? It was a failure because nothing fundamentally changed in how Chrysler did business.

And before we get going on unions, lets bear in mind that unions have one job; to get more for their members. And management signed every one of those contracts. The guys who are paid to know better.

Anybody out there contributing to a pension plan? Or should I say, does anyone's employer offer a pension plan? Heck no! We're all on 401K's yet the auto industry is still offering pensions.

If bankruptcy is declared, everything from pensions to union contracts, to relationships with suppliers can be visited anew. And the court can do just about anything it wants to restore solvency.

The crapola started when the government decided to give the bailout money to the financial institutions instead of just taking the bad loans off their hands as the Secretary of the Treasury was initially inclined to do. The next scam is the idea of helping out the homeowners in foreclosure. Screw the homeowners...they made a bad risk with their eyes open. All this talk about keeping homeowners in their homes, homes they cannot afford, is just going to lead to more, "I need help, too!". To listen to the news, it's as if these people are behind on their garbage bill! Guess what? They cannot pay the mortgage at any rate! I don't care if we're talking about people earning $20K living in a $100K house or people earning $100K living in a $500K house; they're both over extended and will always be overextended. Hog just posted on the same thing across the street from him.

The auto industry is very important. But it makes no sense to just prop up what has not been working. Toyota is credited with having the money to develop the Prius from it's large SUV and truck sales. The Big Three made plenty of money themselves on those vehicles but that money was siphoned off to their structural difficulties.

The auto industry in the US isn't going to die but, it should look a lot different than it does now. What is going to cause that to happen?

And with a Democrat controlled Congress you should be worried, very worried, about how far this is going to spread. George Bush is about to get even more unpopular...if he does the right thing and denies a bailout. If he caves it will be the biggest snowball you've ever seen by Easter. Does President-elect Obama have the balls to say no? Early indications are not good.

[TxLnghrn]

Originally Posted by xort

I do not care for unions, I resigned with a lot of grief & threats from one.
But I think you need to think twice about a bankrupt GM/Ford/Chrysler.
The ripple effect will be significant. As one example, they buy more computer processors than any other entity in the world. Hundreds of thousands of people will loose jobs as suppliers fold.

The only problem with GM right now is they cannot get credit to carry them over the downturn. They have survived every other downturn by borrowing short term money that carried them through. The same would apply this time except nobody is lending.

I hope you are prepared to see the state of Michigan go into receivership. That will be a much bigger bailout than anything proposed right now.
And, there is a pension guarantee setup by the feds. So if GM/Ford/Chrysler cannot make their pension payments, YOU WILL.

And therein lies the problem, why should I as a taxpayer be on the hook for pensions that have been underfunded, mismanaged, and poorly run. I am already responsible for the greatest pension scam of all time Social Security. GM's problems are not unique, they have survived through preferential lending practices. I agree that the ripple effect would be massive, but when as taxpayers do we get to say enough. Unless we as a society allow some of these poorly run companies that cater to unions to fail, and true free market capitalism to prosper we are on a neverending course to a larger centralized government and more and more people living at the expense of fewer and fewer.
Look at the Fannie/Freddie issue. Lending practices mandated by the government led to banks giving loans to those who clearly weren't capable of paying them back. The banks had no fear because they new that the loans could be packaged and sold to Freddie/Fannie i.e. you and I as taxpayers. We got no vote in this, but now we are on the hook for 850 billion in bailout/porkbarrel spending. Industry that caters to/allows unions to dictate management decisions are no different.... They operate on the premise that when their poor management practices lead to the inevitable edge of bankruptcy, the government (taxpayers) will bail them out because to not do so would be political suicide.

Just my two cents, now worth less than one cent.

Michael

[sailaway21]

Funny how the real problems of social security and health care reform are suddenly on the back burner. They're not going away, and they ain't gettin' better!