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  #1101 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2008
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"Fun?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailhog View Post
Let's have some fun picking a bottom for the Dow.

I'm going to say 10,700.
9950 or so
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  #1102 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2008
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sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice
But while the Dow and energy remain volatile the economy slowed and appears to be ready to resume growing. -now that we're out of the recession that we were in for six months but weren't really in but thought we were in because housing is the only factor in the US.....well, you get the idea.

The best thing that could happen is that Washington, DC became contaminated with some type of virus or plague, requiring the shut-down of the Congress. After ethanol and the Bear-Stearns bail-out it can reasonably be asked, haven't you done enough? Only Congress is capable of turning this into a bona-fide and prolonged recession, with some help from the Fed, in their naive desire to pacify Wall Street. Screw Wall Street!
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  #1103 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2008
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I've seen things like this happen before, and I'm sure I'll see it happen one more time before I die. I started my long career in a recession (couldn't get a full time job unless someone retired or died), went through another recession during the peak of my earning years (lost most of what I had worked hard for), and here I am again in another ression...but this time I had my s##t together. As Jimmy Hendricks would sing "I'm experienced"
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  #1104 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2008
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The Bank For International Settlements has just released its 78th annual report. It contains a succinct, clear, and blunt analysis of the current financial situation, the options and their possible outcomes.
The full text is worth reading by those who wish to be informed. However it is quite long, so I recommend the conclusions chapter.
The following is virtually all the summary of that chapter (there being a limit on size that can be quoted without breaching copyright).
"In the aftermath of a long credit-driven boom, it would not be surprising to see turmoil in financial markets, slowing real growth and temporarily rising inflation. The crucial questions at the present juncture have to do with the severity of these individual trends as they now appear and how they might interact. While difficult to predict, their interaction does appear to point to a deeper and more protracted global downturn than the consensus view seems to expect. At the same time, inflationary forces, particularly in emerging market economies, could also prove unexpectedly strong and persistent. A major factor in inflation prospects everywhere is likely to be the behaviour of wages, but in some countries the effect of a depreciating exchange rate on domestic prices could also play an unwelcome role.
With inflation a clear and present threat, and with real policy rates in most countries very low by historical standards, a global bias towards monetary tightening would seem appropriate. That said, the circumstances of different countries, both actual and prospective, currently rule out a "one size fits all" response. Moreover, should the global economy slow sharply and inflationary pressures recede, the bias to tightening would evidently also be reduced.
In the current and prospective environment, it should nonetheless be borne in mind that the effectiveness of a lowering of policy rates might be significantly reduced in the aftermath of a credit-induced spending boom. In view of the potential negative side effects of such a policy, not least the risk of encouraging further financial imbalances and misallocations of real resources, complementary policies might be envisaged to avoid overburdening monetary easing. Expansionary fiscal policy could have some merit, but in many countries current debt levels mean there is little room for manoeuvre. Steps to recognise and deal with losses and debt overhang problems, in a timely and orderly way, and subject to conditionality, must then be a high priority.
Perhaps the principal conclusion to be drawn from today's policy challenges is that it would have been better to avoid the build-up of credit excesses in the first place. "

The document can be found at Bank for International Settlements. The whole chapter is easy to read and both clear and concise in setting out the issues, possible policy responses, and their limitations.
For those still in denial that there is an issue the following makes the IBS view clear.
"The current market turmoil in the world’s main financial centres is without
precedent in the postwar period. With a significant risk of recession in the
United States, compounded by sharply rising inflation in many countries, fears
are building that the global economy might be at some kind of tipping point.
These fears are not groundless. A powerful interaction between financial
market innovation, lax internal and external governance and easy global
monetary conditions over many years has led us to today’s predicament.
Rather than seeking to apportion blame, however, thoughtful reactions must
be the first priority."

Some analysts have put forward the view that inflation will not take hold because there is no wage pressure (the unions having been busted in the 70s.) However, if wages don't rise then any recession will be worse as spending power is curtailed.
Of course the sceptical might wonder if despite the rhetoric to the contrary a weak dollar and inflation are not sought to monetarise debt.

Last edited by chris_gee; 07-01-2008 at 01:35 AM. Reason: Insert missing "
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  #1105 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2008
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"current market turmoil...without precedent" ?

Perhaps the authors forgot the period between 1974 and 1984 when the market was returning about 5% in the atmosphere illustrated below. (Your stock investment didn't even cover inflation, that is, if you had a job so you could invest in the market) The misery index is the combination of inflation and unemployment rates.

The United States Misery Index By Year


1948 11.49 Truman
1949 5.10
1950 6.30
1951 11.16
1952 5.32
1953 3.74 Eisenhower
1954 5.91
1955 4.09
1956 5.64
1957 7.64
1958 9.57
1959 6.46
1960 7.00
1961 7.76 Kennedy
1962 6.77
1963 6.88 Johnson
1964 6.44
1965 6.10
1966 6.80
1967 6.62
1968 7.83
1969 8.95 Nixon
1970 10.82
1971 10.25
1972 8.87
1973 11.02
1974 16.67 Ford
1975 17.68
1976 13.45
1977 13.55 Carter
1978 13.69
1979 17.07
1980 20.76
1981 17.97 Reagan
1982 15.87
1983 12.82
1984 11.81
1985 10.74
1986 8.91
1987 9.84
1988 9.57
1989 10.09 Bush, G.H.W.
1990 11.01
1991 11.10
1992 10.52
1993 9.87 Clinton
1994 8.71
1995 8.40
1996 8.34
1997 7.28
1998 6.05
1999 6.41
2000 7.35
2001 7.59 Bush, G.W.
2002 7.37
2003 8.26
2004 8.21
2005 8.48
2006 7.87
2007 7.46
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Last edited by sailaway21; 07-01-2008 at 02:06 AM.
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  #1106 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2008
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And neither the inflation index nor the unemployment index have been altered since?
I don't see quite why you want to compare a rough approximation of outcomes to a fairly early phase of what a dispassionate observer says is a major problem. For a start the market was not allowed to run riot with its CDOs and whatevers and then get a bailout in the 70s.
Oh and the introduction of Presidents? You trying to say something? Wouldna' be there is no problem and if there were it is the fault of them there Democrats?
Keep waving the flag and watch the chess game.
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  #1107 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2008
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I believe the full quote was: "The current market turmoil in the world’s main financial centres is without precedent in the postwar period." The author was being mores specific than the ellipses would lead one to believe.
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  #1108 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2008
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Hog, what'cha think .. vix up near 30, some fear out there today, good sign ...
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  #1109 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2008
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Wind,
I think the bottom is in sight. Seems there's some evidence the oil bubble is about to pop. Somebody on CNBC claims that when it does, it could fall $15 in a day. After that, it's look out below for oil. If that happens, the rest of the market will show some signs of life. That said, it's going to be a long slog outta here...

Think that vix will make more noise once the market falls below 11,000?
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  #1110 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2008
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Hog, I'd like to see a vix spike of 35 or 40 after this drop, that's what we had years ago with that last big drop - one of those moments that makes a bull's heart skip a few beats ...

I think we are getting close too, I like your mid 10k number ... my ruler is drawing the same straight line.
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Last edited by wind_magic; 07-03-2008 at 11:41 AM.
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