Market crash: are we there yet ?

[PBzeer]

Of course it's Bush's mess, everything is. And our elected representatives, rather than work together to find solutions, look for political advantage. But blame it all on ONE person. That's a sign of thoughful insight.

[Sailormann]

All Americans are in this together, and the worse it gets, more and more economies outside of the USA are involved.

Yup. Kinda sucks but the fact is that this is deeper and worse than anything we have lived through so far. In three months it will become apparent how intertwined the world's economies are. In six months it will become apparent how much of the world is affected.

Certainly, when you come out the other side your economic policies are going to have to change - the rest of the world has pretty well decided that for you already. It may be a good idea to play "grown-up" for a while and rationally consider why the most successful and stable economies and political regimes in the world are what you term "socialist".

We're all in this together. (Unfortunately)

[serenity4u2]

RickM- it is easy to cut and paste one piece of my post... In a public furum that is ones perogative...

The prior post was quick to point out that these practices by fannie and freddy and worse lehnan brothers was a result of poor management and also greed.. Lending money to unqualified people and buying these mortages is bad economic practice... I will correct myself and also include republicans like latte libs are also guilty of financial gimmicks, mismanagement and Greed...

I DO NOT feel any SORROW for ANY business that engages in risky lending practices for short term gains...

I am a little ticked off that I as a Tax Payer some how have to be the one who bails out these greedy mismanaged financial institutions...

[sailaway21]

I'll be more than happy to rain on the praising Rick parade.

Where's the recession to rival the great depression? Ain't happened and looks less likely each day.

What is happening is there are a lot of paper losses taking place. Rick's prognostication that the housing industry would drage the rest of the economy into depression just ain't happening. And there's almost nobody building houses at the moment so go figure. Apparently the housing industry isn't, in Rick's view, those guys with hammers, it's those guys with suits and sharp pencils. And those guys are taking a beating. What's wrong with that?

As I said when the Fed's ineptly bailed out Bear-Stearns they were making a big mistake. They're bailing out speculators who deserve the garrote. They're not doing a damn thing for the housing industry, per se. The Fed can cut interest rates to zero and nothings going to happen until the glut of houses on the market reach their current lower market value.

Fannie and Freddie were grossly mismanaged but then the very existence of such private-government organizations is a gross mismanagement of the government-private sector relationship.

The problem is not that investing laws and regulations have been liberalized-it's that we're making an attempt to remove the downside to risky investing behavior. Every screw-loose investor who found Rick's wares attractive somehow thinks his financial well-being should be a government priority.

Too big to fail-horsepucky! AIG for instance has been doing quite well at insurance, it's core business. Profits there are more than adequate. Their investments in MBS though have them on the ropes. They should be made to take the loss-someone will be more than willing to take on their insurance business.

Since when did investment houses not fall. Who remembers EF Hutton, Shearson, or Drexel? The market dealt with them and it should deal with the current situation. The instability is created by the speculation of what the Fed and the Treasury will do. What they ought to be doing is thinking about inflation and not on spending the tax payers money keeping investors in the flush.

This is a Wall Street problem, not a Main Street problem. Perhaps the only area I might agree with Rick and others is that the government has a good measure of fault in the matter. It's hard to see other than their complicity in writing loans to the otherwise uncreditworthy. Government got us into much of this mess by positing the notion that everyone should own a home. Mark my words, they'll now make matters worse and prolong the situation.

For a market crash thread I'm amazed that more people have not mentioned that, when a majority of investors are running scared it's usually a good time to buy. Five years from now, they'll be wondering how others got so rich in the oughts.

Sailormann might consider why the least dynamic economies and economies with the most chronic unemployment are the most socialist. We run a 6% unemployment rate and we're panicking. Most of Europe would love to see only a 6% unemployment rate-in the best of times.

The government is actually taking an 80% stake in AIG. That means that the government will eventually make a profit onit's AIG investment if for no other reason than that the government can print money to pay off debt. what's wrong with this picture? Why shouldn't I and the rest of America get a chance to buy a devalued AIG? Given their size, I'd bet it's a pretty good investment over the long term. But the government will realize that profit and then do what with the money?

The FEd and that moron Paulson are getting us in deeper and deeper. Take the medicine now, not later. But I guess it's too late for that already, isn't it?

In the meantime, like everyone else in the real economy, I think I'll get up and go to work tomorrow.

[Rockter]

That outfit Lehnan Brothers gave themselves bonuses, last year, yes folks, last year!!!!!!, totalling 5 billion dollars.

$5,000,000,000

The company is seeing big trouble and may hit the wall.

Let it.

The American taxpayer deserves better.. yes, barmaids, cleaning ladies, street sanitation, bricklayers, plumbers.... don't send the bill to them Lehnan. Take the hit yourself.

[Rickm505]

Originally Posted by Rockter

That outfit Lehnan Brothers gave themselves bonuses, last year, yes folks, last year!!!!!!, totalling 5 billion dollars.

$5,000,000,000

The company is seeing big trouble and may hit the wall.

Do tell..... why the next thing ya know Merrill Lynch and AIG might be in trouble too!!

[Rickm505]

Originally Posted by sailaway21

I'll be more than happy to rain on the praising Rick parade..

At least you're man enough to show up. Now, if we can just get you to start at the beginning and count the ways you've been wrong.

Originally Posted by sailaway21

Rick's prognostication that the housing industry would drage the rest of the economy into depression just ain't happening. And there's almost nobody building houses at the moment so go figure. Apparently the housing industry isn't, in Rick's view, those guys with hammers, it's those guys with suits and sharp pencils. And those guys are taking a beating. What's wrong with that?.

What rock are you hiding under? Are you that out of touch with reality. On what basis do you make any of these statements? Is the Unemployment rate decreasing? Is the GDP growing? Unfortunately Sailaway21, the days of "it must be true because you type it" are gone. You have no data to back any of this up, and are risking what's left of your credibility.

Originally Posted by sailaway21

The problem is not that investing laws and regulations have been liberalized-it's that we're making an attempt to remove the downside to risky investing behavior. Every screw-loose investor who found Rick's wares attractive somehow thinks his financial well-being should be a government priority..

The problem is that current trading laws and policies were waived... They were overlooked to favor speculators on Wall Street. It's time you did some homework on CNBC and Bloomberg before wasting our time with out of date remarks. Here's a tip...Naked Shorting...

As to the 'screw loose' investors. As you can see by recent foreclosure documents. This is now a wide swath of homeowners in the USA. Not just investors. Again, you have no data to back up your remarks. I'd suggest switching off Fox News for a while and do some reading.

Originally Posted by sailaway21

Too big to fail-horsepucky! AIG for instance has been doing quite well at insurance, it's core business. Profits there are more than adequate. Their investments in MBS though have them on the ropes. They should be made to take the loss-someone will be more than willing to take on their insurance business...

Adequate? in who's opinion..yours? This is getting tiresum. AIG already hired the bankruptsy attorney. They were going down because of a $15 billion immediate shortfall, and no place to borrow the money. Evidently the Secretary of the Treasury disagree with you as does the chairman of the Federal Reserve. Sheesh, someone ought to email them and tell them Sailaway21 said they screwed up.

Again, outdated information and no basis in reality. A common denominator in your recent posts.

[wind_magic]

Originally Posted by Rickm505

The problem is that current trading laws and policies were waived... They were overlooked to favor speculators on Wall Street. It's time you did some homework on CNBC and Bloomberg before wasting our time with out of date remarks. Here's a tip...Naked Shorting...

Every time the markets take a big hit people want to start blaming short sellers, it's always been that way. It's like the most simple kindergarten logic in the world - hey, if we don't let them sell the stock, then the price won't go down!

It's akin to blaming the taxi driver because your wife left you when all he did was drive her to her mother's house.

All the naked shorting in the world won't sell a stock that doesn't want to sell. The big old mean hedge funds are not the boogie man, they are just traders doing what traders do, same ones who helped the prices go up for the past 15 years. Short sellers aren't the boogie man, people's own stupidity is.

[Rickm505]

Naked shorting drives down the market price of what could be a very healthy company.

If you check the CNBC website and Jim Cramer's videos, he has an opinion of shorting stocks (yeah, him of all people). He blames it for the volatility we see in the markets today. Cramer's argument is the SEC's July 15th announcement of temporarily enforcing the naked shorting rules and the stability it brought to the market. When it expired, volatility kicked in again.

Evidently the SEC agrees, hence the 'new rules' which restate what was already on the books.

[wind_magic]

Originally Posted by Rickm505

The problem is that current trading laws and policies were waived... They were overlooked to favor speculators on Wall Street. It's time you did some homework on CNBC and Bloomberg before wasting our time with out of date remarks. Here's a tip...Naked Shorting...

And one more thing, who are these "speculators" you are talking about anyway ? It's you, if you are in the market. Nobody comes to the market to lose money. If you are there and you want price appreciation then you are speculating, so look in the mirror.

The only people who are in the market who I wouldn't consider speculators are farmers, oil drillers, etc, who buy and sell futures contracts to lock in a price months before they bring their products to the market. If that isn't you and you have money "in the market" then you are a speculator. Don't kid yourself by calling yourself an investor. If you are seeking any kind of capital gain, you are speculating.