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11-07-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBzeer
You can't simply mandate higher wages ...
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You can mandate higher wages, but what you can't do is create wealth out of thin air. Skipping the long analysis, the minimum wage for example works in that it creates a floor for wages and anyone who works can be assured of receiving some minimum payment per hour ... but that's also the reason you don't see any teenagers bagging groceries, pumping gasoline, or raking leaves for landscape companies anymore, because those businesses can't afford to pay minimum wage for such menial jobs. If it weren't for the minimum wage you'd have kids helping to carry stuff out to the car at lowes instead of playing wii all day. I'm not saying the minimum wage is a bad thing, I'm only saying that you can't change one thing without affecting something else, there's no free ride ...
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11-07-2008
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Sorry windy, thought the lack of wealth creation in wage controls was inherent in the statement.
Overall, I don't like a minimum wage. The minuses, to me, outweigh the positives, and in more than just economics. The societal impact of underemployed youth, I think contributes to things as diverse as obesity to lack of work ethic in later life.
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John
Ontario 32 - Aria
Free, is the heart, that lives not, in fear.
Full, is the spirit, that thinks not, of falling.
True, is the soul, that hesitates not, to give.
Alive, is the one, that believes, in love. JCP
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11-07-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBzeer
Sorry windy, thought the lack of wealth creation in wage controls was inherent in the statement.
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I wasn't following the conversation all along, you probably did make the point and I just didn't see it. 
Quote:
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Overall, I don't like a minimum wage. The minuses, to me, outweigh the positives, and in more than just economics. The societal impact of underemployed youth, I think contributes to things as diverse as obesity to lack of work ethic in later life.
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I think the minimum wage, child labor laws, and the like do what they were intended to do, they mostly stop young people from being "exploited". They do not, however, do that in the way they were originally intended - the hope was that by setting a minimum wage that the menial work would pay better, not that the jobs would simply go away. Americans today don't really know what the world would be like if these laws didn't exist, but some people do know - anyone who has been to Mexico for example knows. I had a lot of opportunity to shop in Mexican stores outside of the tourists areas and believe me, they are full of young people working. The stores were clean, the atmosphere was friendly and vibrant, the kids bagged up your stuff, put it in a cart, and wheeled it out to your vehicle, and they were of course accepting tips! It is nice to see young people engaged in the world like that, laughing and joking with each other, etc. That kind of atmosphere hasn't existed in the United States for at least 30 years. In the United States it's all big lifeless stores, nobody around to help when you have questions, dreary looking people scanning bar codes, etc, there's just no vitality to it. You'd be tempted to think that's it's the evil big companies doing it, that stores like Walmart are just so focused on the bottom line that they wouldn't hire young people even if there wasn't a minimum wage ... but the Walmart in Mexico that I went to was exactly like the rest of the stores, kids pushing carts out across the parking lot and collecting change, laughing with each other as they collected carts, etc. In America businesses can't afford to pay people to do that, instead they've stripped the stores down to their bare minimums in terms of labor costs, taking things off of trucks and putting them on to shelves, and scanning them again and accepting money as they leave the store. And as wage pressures increase and the government threatens to force stores to provide health care, etc, we're increasingly going to be scanning and paying for our own stuff, bagging our own purchases, etc. One can only hope we don't eventually have to unload the tractor trailer ourselves.
The government can mandate whatever it wants, it can say everyone deserves to make 100k$us/year if it wants to - but they'll never get what they intended. That's why they call it the "law of unintended consequences".
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11-07-2008
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Unintended consequences indeed. And unrevisited in any meaningful way to reverse the consequences.
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John
Ontario 32 - Aria
Free, is the heart, that lives not, in fear.
Full, is the spirit, that thinks not, of falling.
True, is the soul, that hesitates not, to give.
Alive, is the one, that believes, in love. JCP
Music on the Wind -
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11-07-2008
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Wandering Aimlessly
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Could get real interesting in a couple of months. While saying his economic plan is the right plan, Obama says he will have to consider whether to implement it or not. That leaves one wondering, the right plan for what outcome?
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John
Ontario 32 - Aria
Free, is the heart, that lives not, in fear.
Full, is the spirit, that thinks not, of falling.
True, is the soul, that hesitates not, to give.
Alive, is the one, that believes, in love. JCP
Music on the Wind -
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11-07-2008
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Oh, I'm sure whatever Right Plan Obama had, has long since gone out the window with Russia and Venezuela working on a gold deal that will restructure the gold market, which is, for the moment, base on the USD.
Once it's restructure based on the NEW WORLD currency ?????.........Whoa
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1978 Tayana 37
Freedom comes when you’re ready to sail away. True freedom comes when you don’t have to return
Cut off from the land that bore us, betrayed by the land we find, where the brightest have gone before us and the dullest remain behind, .......but stand to your glasses, steady,.......tis all we have left to prize, raise a cup to the dead already, hurrah for the next that dies
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11-07-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBzeer
Could get real interesting in a couple of months. While saying his economic plan is the right plan, Obama says he will have to consider whether to implement it or not. That leaves one wondering, the right plan for what outcome?
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Every plan he mentioned during the campaign would cost a bunch of money to implement, and this would be on top of next year's $1 Trillion Bush deficit which he will inherit. I can certainly understand their reluctance. However, if we are to believe Bernancke, the economy needs a massive influx of money, not austerity.
If I had to guess, I think we will see some sort of Infastructure Program as not only is it needed, the country would reap the entire benefit from the program.
The downside? It will cost a fortune. The new guy will be in a box from day 1. I think we can all wave goodbye to his healthcare proposal.
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Tropic Cat
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11-07-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TropicCat
Every plan he mentioned during the campaign would cost a bunch of money to implement, and this would be on top of next year's $1 Trillion Bush deficit which he will inherit. I can certainly understand their reluctance. However, if we are to believe Bernancke, the economy needs a massive influx of money, not austerity.
If I had to guess, I think we will see some sort of Infrastructure Program as not only is it needed, the country would reap the entire benefit from the program.
The downside? It will cost a fortune. The new guy will be in a box from day 1. I think we can all wave goodbye to his health care proposal.
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There will be one, you can be assured, but it will not be anything close to what you might be thinking about now.
The numbers of "old" people is now staggering with not enough "young" people to support them like in the past.
Japan and the EU have worse numbers than the US.
There are simply not enough recourses to keep the "old" alive while not "producing" enough. They (me) will be allowed to pass on. It is the only way the "young" will be able to survive.
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11-07-2008
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Wandering Aimlessly
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My above post, was taken from his remarks today, at his first press conference as President-elect. The reason for mentioning it, is for the effect such indecisiveness is apt to have on the markets.
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It's one thing to have a plan that helps get you elected. To then tout it as the right plan, but possibly not the right plan, for right now, leaves me wondering what then, is the right plan, for right now. Or will we continue to have more of the "failed policies of the past 8 years", until the time is right for his right plan?
It seems to me, that if one gives a press conference on the economy, then one should put forth some sense of direction, rather than simply repeat the rhetoric of the campaign trail. Or do I expect too much?
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John
Ontario 32 - Aria
Free, is the heart, that lives not, in fear.
Full, is the spirit, that thinks not, of falling.
True, is the soul, that hesitates not, to give.
Alive, is the one, that believes, in love. JCP
Music on the Wind -
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11-08-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wind_magic
I had a lot of opportunity to shop in Mexican stores outside of the tourists areas and believe me, they are full of young people working. The stores were clean, the atmosphere was friendly and vibrant, the kids bagged up your stuff, put it in a cart, and wheeled it out to your vehicle, and they were of course accepting tips!
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Did your stuff get bagged by anyone over fifty? The tips you gave are the only wages baggers get. They don't get paid by the store.
The people at the border crossing are members of a organized union,I like the roasted corn, burritos. Almost bought a guitar last time I crossed, fine workmanship.
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