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  #5011 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kootenay View Post
But the key fact is its hundreds of thousands of customers making decisions that lead to the electronic trading.
Your point is taken, but not all folks trade at a profit.

The point was made in an earlier post which you probably didn't have a chance to read. Goldman Sachs was 40% of the August trading volume on all exchanges; primarily trading in just 4 stocks. These stocks are listed in the earlier post. The alarm bell was rung in early August when on one particular trading day Goldman Sachs was 95% of all trades done on all exchanges. I'll say that again. 95% of all trades on all exchanges.

That's just wrong
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  #5012 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2009
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Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Wow! Can you imagine the fallout of this? Maybe a good thing in disguise.

Why Financial Markets Worry About US-China Trade Dispute - Yahoo! Finance

- CD
CD-- a few quick things you might want realize about:

bond traders-- this part of the market are proffessional bears, there are no bulls only bears who are occaisionally less miserable-- they say they are the canary in the mine, just not a very dependable canary, they are wrong much more often than the stocks markets are at guesstimating recessions/inflation. bond markets are what? 7 to 9 times bigger than equity markets, so yes there is some serious money here-and that is why you have to have a certain patience with this group- this group is forever seeing the glass as at least half empty.

currency-- if your domestic demand is low and unused capacity is high you need to stimluate economic activity-- there are many ways of doing so, one of them is to talk down your currency ( not destroy it, just let it ooze down a bit) so that your exporting companies and industries can take up some of the economic activity load no longer being carried by the US consumer. China wants to creat a consumer society, it would be nice if they could somehow get their people getting the benefit from some USA goods and services but the currencies don't work well, us $ too high to remimbi which does not yet float..

Trade wars-- it should not seem like a stretch of the imagination for one to hope that the leaders of the #1 economy and the #3 world economy are adults and are capable of acting as such-- it would not benefit either party, why shoot each other in the foot and start a trade war? Reality: There have not been tires produced in the USA in thirty plus years, the united rubber workers union disappeared into the bowels of the united steel workers in what-- the late 70? That is just nuts-- but it does make for some great headlines, just substitute buggy whip makers for tiremakers

--you need to look obliquely, who or what else falls into line to the benefit of both USA and China by this sabre rattling?????...couple of things come to mind: lower currency for USA, China can save face by expanding its currency assets, USA corps can expand business, excess capaicity starts to get used up--ahh the start of a new business cycle..

Those foggey oblique edges are where the real story lies, the talking heads are all part of the misinformation, they do not even know they are pawns...
JMHO
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  #5013 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2009
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That's just wrong[/QUOTE]

you are right-- we have a problem when "virtual" trading exceeds real trading-- did we not just do something like that with mortgage debt and engineered financial produts-- that worked so well did it not?

The issues that everyone is dancing around are the legality or morality of someone gaming the markets, getting free access to trading data, the giving and paying of kick backs and rebates, rules should be applied across all participants in the markets-- not giving a chosen few a free pass, some pigs are NOT more equal than others.

We need transparent markets and visable markets, not black holes and back rooms
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  #5014 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Wow! Can you imagine the fallout of this? Maybe a good thing in disguise.

Why Financial Markets Worry About US-China Trade Dispute - Yahoo! Finance

- CD
First the cut off of the Mexican pilot trucking program, then buy American provisions in the stimulus, now tariffs on tires. The world is watching. You and Rick could get what you've been wanting. Along with the rest of us.
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  #5015 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2009
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Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Wow! Can you imagine the fallout of this? Maybe a good thing in disguise.

Why Financial Markets Worry About US-China Trade Dispute - Yahoo! Finance

- CD
Not to worry CD, despite Danjarch's warning, the Chinese aren't stupid. At least they're not as dim as the author of that Yahoo article.

China is somewhat enslaved by our debt. As long as their economy is export based they can't stop buying or even sell our debt. If they were to sell all of its U.S. Treasury bonds, it would mean China is converting most, if not all, of its dollars into their own currency.

China's economy would tank overnight. While the country would sell off all of its dollar reserves, thus tanking the dollar, this would in effect increase the value of the yuan at the same time — which means they shoot themselves in both feet as fewer nations would be able to afford Chinese exported goods — including the United States.

In short, it never pays to bankrupt your best customer. So, they can take the hit on tires. As for a trade war? What the hell do they buy besides chicken?

Let them jump up and down or learn to play by the rules they agreed to. Not to worry .....yet.
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Old 09-15-2009
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Originally Posted by danjarch View Post
First the cut off of the Mexican pilot trucking program,
One of the guys in our marina is an ex trucker. He says that an American trucker heading for Mexico had to drop his load at the border. A Mexican trucker then picked up the load and brought it into Mexico.

However, the real traffic came in the other direction where Mexican drivers simply crossed the border and were allowed to deliver loads to their destination.

American truckers were furious with this disparity and demanded change.
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  #5017 (permalink)  
Old 09-15-2009
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US credit shrinks at Great Depression rate prompting fears of double-dip recession

from: US credit shrinks at Great Depression rate prompting fears of double-dip recession - Telegraph

Both bank credit and the M3 money supply in the United States have been contracting at rates comparable to the onset of the Great Depression since early summer, raising fears of a double-dip recession in 2010 and a slide into debt-deflation.

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, International Business Editor
Published: 11:59PM BST 14 Sep 2009



Professor Tim Congdon from International Monetary Research said US bank loans have fallen at an annual pace of almost 14pc in the three months to August (from $7,147bn to $6,886bn).

"There has been nothing like this in the USA since the 1930s," he said. "The rapid destruction of money balances is madness."

The M3 "broad" money supply, watched as an early warning signal for the economy a year or so later, has been falling at a 5pc annual rate.

Similar concerns have been raised by David Rosenberg, chief strategist at Gluskin Sheff, who said that over the four weeks up to August 24, bank credit shrank at an "epic" 9pc annual pace, the M2 money supply shrank at 12.2pc and M1 shrank at 6.5pc.

"For the first time in the post-WW2 [Second World War] era, we have deflation in credit, wages and rents and, from our lens, this is a toxic brew," he said.

It is unclear why the US Federal Reserve has allowed this to occur.


Chairman Ben Bernanke is an expert on the "credit channel" causes of depressions and has given eloquent speeches about the risks of deflation in the past.

He is not a monetary economist, however, and there are indications that the Fed has had to pare back its policy of quantitative easing (buying bonds) in order to reassure China and other foreign creditors that the US is not trying to devalue its debts by stealth monetisation.

Mr Congdon said a key reason for credit contraction is pressure on banks to raise their capital ratios. While this is well-advised in boom times, it makes matters worse in a downturn.

"The current drive to make banks less leveraged and safer is having the perverse consequence of destroying money balances," he said. "It strengthens the deflationary forces in the world economy. That increases the risks of a double-dip recession in 2010."

Referring to the debt-purge policy of US Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon in the early 1930s, he added: "The pressure on banks to de-risk and to de-leverage is the modern version of liquidationism: it is potentially just as dangerous."

US banks are cutting lending by around 1pc a month. A similar process is occurring in the eurozone, where private sector credit has been contracting and M3 has been flat for almost a year.

Mr Congdon said IMF chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn is wrong to argue that the history of financial crises shows that "speedy recovery" depends on "cleansing banks' balance sheets of toxic assets". "The message of all financial crises is that policy-makers' priority must be to stop the quantity of money falling and, ideally, to get it rising again," he said.

He predicted that the Federal Reserve and other central banks will be forced to engage in outright monetisation of government debt by next year, whatever they say now.
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  #5018 (permalink)  
Old 09-15-2009
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Thanks for the link, Bene.

I tell you, I just don't get it. Who is buying all this stuff? There were, as of writing this, well over a billion shares traded on the Dow. Now I realize that I do not represent the entire US, but no one I am talking to is buying into this market - and certianly not enough to represent the massive volume and huge upticks in stock. People are unemployed - depending on who you believe, 1 in 10 to 1 in 5 people. You don't buy stocks when you are unemployed. You don't buy stocks when you think you might be unemployed. You don't buy stocks when you are happily emplyed but just barely making it. So again, where is the masive trading and buying coming from?

As far as the banks de-leveraging, of course they are! They are struggling with their falling assets (commercial, credit card, and residential real estate) to balance their equities so that they do not become a zombie bank (or at least any more of a zombie bank). I read the other day that the Fed Bailout of the big banks and the increased insurance costs via FDIC are creating massive cash flow problems for the smaller banks that did their business right. In other words, those that did not buy into all the residential and commercial bubbles (rightfully so) are being punished and paying the debts for those banks that did buy into it (can you say BofA, Citi, etc).

SO the market is up over 50% from its lows, and in no time flat. Crap, in the best of economic times people would be scratching their heads and warning of a bubble and massinve correction. We certainly are not in those times now, yet the market is up nearly .7 percent right now. And if everyone is so settled that the mess is over and we are out of the woods and the horizon is beautiful, can someone explain to me why gold is looking at 1,000/ounce!???

The fundamentals that got us here have not changed. In fact, it can easily be argued that they are worse. So, explain the rally? Tech Ticker called it the Greatest Sucker Rally of All Time. Who agrees with them?

All I can say is that if it is unseen market forces (ie, the US Government and the Goldman's of the world) that are pushing up these numbers to unrealistic levels, then when that bubble pops, it will not be pretty. It could very well be worse than the original bubble. Who was it that said that every bubble is followed by a slightly larger one?

I just don't get it. You guys go right ahead and buy your stocks. Enjoy your gains. No, really, unemployment is only 9.5 percent. GE is running full steam ahead. BofA has taken care of all their propblems. We really do need 25 sf of retail space for every man, woman, and child. And the Chinese are just dumb people that enjoy the feel of US Treasuries, no matter what they are worth or will be worth. I have it all wrong. Better jump in before the market breaks 15,000 or think of the money you will lose. Hurry up. After all, you still got one good lense after the last implosion.



- CD
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Old 09-15-2009
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Originally Posted by Bene505 View Post
[B]Both bank credit and the M3 money supply in the United States have been contracting at rates comparable to the onset of the Great Depression since early summer, raising fears of a double-dip recession in 2010 and a slide into debt-deflation.
Bene505, nice post - these are all the reasons I don't like gold over the medium term ...

Quote:
He predicted that the Federal Reserve and other central banks will be forced to engage in outright monetisation of government debt by next year, whatever they say now.
... and why I adore gold over the long term.

Cash is king until we hit the bottom of the deflation, then it is gold all the way.

World-wide currency devaluation coming soon to a country near you. Just not quite yet.
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Old 09-15-2009
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Bene505, nice post - these are all the reasons I don't like gold over the medium term ...



... and why I adore gold over the long term.

Cash is king until we hit the bottom of the deflation, then it is gold all the way.

World-wide currency devaluation coming soon to a country near you. Just not quite yet.
What is one to do when they say you can't own it anymore and want it back like they did once before?
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