Market crash: are we there yet ?

[kredit]

we have over 170 military bases around the world! What we are ,what weve become is a warrior nation. forget economy...we will fall long before we fire our last bullets. we traded education, health care and responsible governancefor aircraft carriers holding 5000 warriors .

[kredit]

we have over 170 military bases around the world! What we are ,what weve become is a warrior nation. forget economy...we will fall long before we fire our last bullets. we traded education, health care and responsible governancefor aircraft carriers holding 5000 warriors .

[RAGNAR]

Originally Posted by w1651

True they want it to come out on Video first. Reading is fastly becoming a lost art.

I'm far more concerned about the loss of skills like independence of thought, intellectual honesty, an understanding of the basics of reason, the fact that reality is independent of consciousness not a function of it, an ability to focus on a given proposition instead of focussing on the source, etc. It turns out, of course, that the methods that instill good reading and writing habits often help establish these crucial skills.

Until Parents get it in their heads that teachers are NOT baby sitters but licensed professionals with the job of teaching their kids in a controlled structured environment, And that basic learning skills start as a youth in the home we are doomed.

Agreed. But a lot of what parents are instilling in their children stems from what's become the status quo in pedagogy. It then gets reinforced when the kids get to school by the methods and curricula they're exposed to all day. (One example: where do we get off expecting 10-12 year olds to form opinions on world events, when they're biologically incapable of analytic thinking at that age? All they get out of such practices is that opinions are to be formed without a foundation of reason - whim- and that all opinions are equally valid. That's not education, it's not instilling genuine self-esteem; it's instilling a phony sense of efficacy by making emotionalism an arbitrary whim cognitive primaries.)

I hated homework but let my dad find out I hadn't done it was worse, much worse.

That's an issue, for sure, but so is the curriculum and the methods that define modern education.

Some of the best schools in the nation, not the most prestigious but the best, do such a great job structuring the students' day that they don't even assign homework. One school graduates 8th graders that have gone through what was once called pre-calculus, have analyzed all the major literary works and, far more importantly, have been taught a good deal about valid inference. by structuring their school day correctly, the kids can learn an incredible amount of skills at school.

Kids have got to be challenged every day to broaden their intellectual skills and be made to think for themselves.

True. Instead, we have a culture that bombards them with the exact opposite expectations, viewing what you're calling for as "artificial", limiting, even "fascistic". (Search "Dewey" for quotes I've put up from the father of all this nonsense, John Dewey.)

The way out is to empower parents with choice via vouchers and tax credits. That way, the efficacy of a given approach can be demonstrated and juxtaposed against that of other methods. In no time, the better methods would win out. Instead, we filter method through a seemingly endless series of political considerations and soft standards that do not prepare kids for anything like what's needed for them to achieve their potential.

[w1651]

That's going to be the big change in the world. The American government is going to have to cut back. The American people are already cutting back. Whether we start a trade war as Rick wants or just quietly start reining in the deficit spending, it's going to happen. Once Americans no longer believe that 8 hours of answering phones a day should entitle them to a 3500 square foot house and Lexus sedan, then we'll see a turn around in the American economy.

Well Said !
Now if we really could get the congress to cut spending and stop all those earmarks we would be set.
.

[killarney_sailor]

Originally Posted by RAGNAR

<>(One example: where do we get off expecting 10-12 year olds to form opinions on world events, when they're biologically incapable of analytic thinking at that age?

<>

have analyzed all the major literary works and, far more importantly, have been taught a good deal about valid inference.

.

Pretty impressive improvement between age 12 and the end of eight grade if "12 year olds are biologically incapable of analytic thinking" and kids going into ninth grade have analyzed all those important books, btw how many works would make up this canon and who would decide what make the list?

I taught high school for 30+ years, did graduate work in curriculum and school improvement and would not presume to suggest that there is one magic bullet to make all schools better. In fact, the reality is that what might work in one classroom will not work in another with different kids and a different teacher on a different day. Who was the wise person who said that for every complex question there is an easy answer -- and its wrong?

Can younger kids do analytical thinking? Of course they can as long as we understand what analytical thinking is and present them with questions of an appropriate level of sophistication. Analysis can be taught to six year-olds if it is done correctly. Unfortunately a school system that focuses on standardized testing will only detract from the learning of higher order thinking skills because such testing is focussed on lower order skills.

[RAGNAR]

Originally Posted by killarney_sailor

Pretty impressive improvement between age 12 and the end of eight grade if "12 year olds are biologically incapable of analytic thinking"

First, they can be introduced to fundamentals in a loose way at that age and earlier. "Steeling is wrong". "That's rude conduct." "You wouldn't like it if I hit you for the heck of it." And a scrutinized bibliography can help them not only grasp these "commands" but can help them develop cognitively.

They can also be taught deduction, as in algebra and trig, establishing geometric proofs, all of which starts them down the road to higher analytical skills.

What they can't be taught yet are the methods of analysis and reasoning that validate the "commandments", for example, or how we induced the rules of geometric deduction, how to analyze the Middle East conflict thoroughly, etc. They can apply "don't steel" to real world examples that are presented in a certain way. "The Germans stole Poland". You can't get them to truly grasp the abstractions behind the Nazi movement, how those abstractions were inferred from the metaphysics and epistemology of Kant and Hegel, how they led to WWII, and that similar disasters are to be expected whenever certain fundamentals are set aside.

On the literary front, they're not ready to take on complex plots that lean on intricacies best left for those that are at least 14-16.. Yet, in public ed, all we see is a saturation of moral and political POVs very early (ask a 6-8 year old about global warming.) It's profoundly dishonest to saturated kids with such outlooks before they can analyze, both on a moral and intellectual level. they're capable of reacting emotionally to wrongs, especially if they lessons are presented with visuals and the like. They have no way of analyzing the ideas they just internalized.

As for who picks the reading list: this issue doesn't even come up in a genuinely free society. Parents would have the right to chose the school/method of their choice, given the options available to them.

I taught high school for 30+ years, did graduate work in curriculum and school improvement and would not presume to suggest that there is one magic bullet to make all schools better.

Well, the magic bullet du jour is more funds/student. People don't seem to have a problem with that "rule" even though it has an abysmal track record.

In fact, the reality is that what might work in one classroom will not work in another with different kids and a different teacher on a different day.

There are ways to identify what's working in a given enviornment, what isn't. And as others have said on this thread, the problems start way before we get to the teen years. Bad methods are used fairly early, from pre-K to 6th grade.

There's a massive history of the classic approach achieving far more than Progressive Education has, both in Western and developing countries. There's a great track record in schools that don't treat children as if they're entitled to the autonomy of adults. We can't tweak the basics erroneously, then claim that we can't find a magic bullet. Other cultures have it. We had it.

Who was the wise person who said that for every complex question there is an easy answer -- and its wrong?

Some esteemed genius who never learned how to reason properly.

Can younger kids do analytical thinking? Of course they can as long as we understand what analytical thinking is and present them with questions of an appropriate level of sophistication.

UP to a point, I agree. But it's not the case that they can either be taught complex methods of analysis much before 14, or that they can be taught such methods without the right foundation.

Analysis can be taught to six year-olds if it is done correctly.

That's a broad definition of analysis, too broad to be helpful in this context, IMHO.

Unfortunately a school system that focuses on standardized testing will only detract from the learning of higher order thinking skills because such testing is focussed on lower order skills.

We can change the tests, when they're administered, etc.

What I would like to see is parents empowered with real choices, ie, parents having both the power of the purse and the right to chose an approach without Government & Friends limiting those choices.

And for the record: I don't believe that there's such a thing as the "right" salary for any job, or that teaching, policing, etc., are professions that transcend the market mechanism. The market should decide compensation, as a function of supply and demand. So if education has to offer $120K/yr to attract the right people in a certain market, then that's the "right" salary. If the possibility of making such a salary saturates the market with qualified people, then I have no problem with either hat salary dropping to whatever level the market mandates, or raising the standards for that $120K/yr.

I don't think our education system is in the mess it's in because it costs so much. It's the combination of the teaching methods we've embraced and the impact they and related factors have had on child rearing that's the problem.

[RAGNAR]

Not to continue the kidnapping of this thread, but the age of 12 is a crucial threshold in valid developmental literature. 12 is the intellectual age Piaget claimed that as many of 80% of us will remain throughout our lifetimes. (I don't remember this with 101% certainty, but I'm near-certain that he wasn't claiming a biological/genetic limitation. Unlike most in education and psychology today, Piaget dismissed these explanations, believing that better methods could be applied to get a far higher percentage of the population past that rudimentary level of analytical skills.)

[Bene505]

Originally Posted by RAGNAR

...Some of the best schools in the nation, not the most prestigious but the best, do such a great job structuring the students' day that they don't even assign homework. One school graduates 8th graders that have gone through what was once called pre-calculus, have analyzed all the major literary works and, far more importantly, have been taught a good deal about valid inference. by structuring their school day correctly, the kids can learn an incredible amount of skills at school.

Ragnar,

Can you provide an example of these schools? We are making choices this month about a school for our eldest child.

Once again, bravo on your content (and tone & demeanor) in this forum. You are sharing your thought and time with a great deal of insight.

Regards,
Brad

[fjon]

Tho' I've been a deflationist for years, I found the following article one of the better presentations on the possibility of hyperinflation.

Gonzalo Lira: How Hyperinflation Will Happen

Glad to see SN cleaned up and running again.

[w1651]

Originally Posted by fjon

Tho' I've been a deflationist for years, I found the following article one of the better presentations on the possibility of hyperinflation.

Gonzalo Lira: How Hyperinflation Will Happen

Glad to see SN cleaned up and running again.

Great Article !

Ive been watching the hyperinflation extremists talk. Get ready it's gonna be a bumpy ride.