Market crash: are we there yet ?

[danjarch]

Originally Posted by w1651

Why couldn't we ?
In this day and age why couldn't we send our representatives in Washington the way we want them to vote.
Every week we could see what comes before the house and senate the next week or so and we could send them the way we want them to vote on legislation.
Then when a bill like Health Care goes up for a vote and passes we can look back at the record and see if that is how they were told to vote. It could be run through servers at your Local and State voting offices.That way there is more then one record as to how the vote was taken. Local, State and in Washington.
You would just need to give out numbers or accounts to Americans with a voters ID so they could log in to do it.

Why so high tech. We can just have mob rule. We'll all just go out in the streets and just demand what we want. If they give it to us we'll just kill them all.

Seriously though, the fair tax, flat tax and sales tax are all as easy to corrupt as the current system. Don't believe me, then check out how many exemptions exist for special items or certain companies in your own state under the sales tax system. There is no holy system that won't be corrupted so it would be better to clean up the system we have now rather then create some new system.

It also is a bad idea to have weekly votes on every thing that comes before the congress. It would only devolve into mob rule. Most people wouldn't bother paying attention until they get pissed off about something, and then all hell would break loose. You can already write your congressman as much as you want and look up how he/she voted on any given bill, so you should have no trouble deciding who voted the way you wanted the most. Hoping all your fellow voters will pay as much attention is wishful thinking.

[w1651]

Originally Posted by danjarch

Why so high tech. We can just have mob rule. We'll all just go out in the streets and just demand what we want. If they give it to us we'll just kill them all.

Seriously though, the fair tax, flat tax and sales tax are all as easy to corrupt as the current system. Don't believe me, then check out how many exemptions exist for special items or certain companies in your own state under the sales tax system. There is no holy system that won't be corrupted so it would be better to clean up the system we have now rather then create some new system.

It also is a bad idea to have weekly votes on every thing that comes before the congress. It would only devolve into mob rule. Most people wouldn't bother paying attention until they get pissed off about something, and then all hell would break loose. You can already write your congressman as much as you want and look up how he/she voted on any given bill, so you should have no trouble deciding who voted the way you wanted the most. Hoping all your fellow voters will pay as much attention is wishful thinking.

I understand everything you said here except how we go from a systematic vote on everything sent to our congress men and women to mob rule.
We wouldn't be voting we would be telling our elected officials how we want them to vote. There is a very big difference there.
As far as only a few people would actually use the system remains to be seen. And if you do choose to abstain and not tell your legislators what to do and they vote against your position You cannot Bitch about it because you didn't vote.
Is it perfect of course not but it would hold our elected officials more accountable.
Look at the fine congressman from the great state of New York last week. The man gets caught not paying taxes and other ethical challenges and he gets censured. We would be put under the jail for tax evasion if it were us.Just another example of the people at the top not being held to the same standards as we at the bottom are.

[TropicCat]

Originally Posted by PBzeer

By all means, let's just outlaw outsourcing, then slap on tariffs (which not coincidentally will bring the lobbyists flocking to DC with wads of cash), and then go borrow trillions to rebuild everything. Sounds like a plan to me.

That the cost of living will skyrocket, we'll have no sources for many of the necessary raw materials for all the rebuilt industries, and no export markets, is a small price to pay.

It's true that the end of the last depression didn't occur until deficit spending kicked in to build war supplies for World War II. At the end of hostilities, America was the one and only industrial power unaffected by war damage. Our growth continued as we exported our brains out until the 1970s. By then, all war damage in industrial countries had been repaired.

This is a slightly different depression in that cause and effect are similar to the 1930's but we don't have an obvious way out this time. Or are you advocating attacking Iran as the solution to this depression?

We have the largest economy in the world. Nations are exporting their products freely to us, while protecting their own markets from our exports. This is fact, and is indisputable. Your example of Korea is accurate, yet they are but one country pulling this crap with us. Obama couldn't get a fair trade deal there, and neither will anyone else. So, give them a taste of their own medicine and see how they like it. As a matter of fact, let's do it tomorrow. This will send a warning shot across the bows of everyone else playing the same game.

The bottom line is we need jobs. Republicans don't have any intention of renewing unemployment benefits. It is going to have to be jobs or there's going to be insurrection.

Household Food InSecurity in the United States, 2009

You choose. But make the right choice before it's too late.

I think you lose sight of the fact that it's no longer just auto workers affected. Fully 50% of recent college graduates with a B.A, can not find a job. No offers at all. It's teachers, firemen, accountants, engineers .... it's everyone. I understand it's Republican doctrine not to allow Obama any kind of a 'win'. But at what cost? Flushing the entire country?

There has to be a line in the sand that no American will cross.

[RAGNAR]

[RAGNAR]

Originally Posted by danjarch

Why so high tech. We can just have mob rule. We'll all just go out in the streets and just demand what we want. If they give it to us we'll just kill them all.

If you can't open their minds, open their heads.

Old motto of union leadership.

[therapy23]

Originally Posted by danjarch

Seriously though, the fair tax, flat tax and sales tax are all as easy to corrupt as the current system. Don't believe me, then check out how many exemptions exist for special items or certain companies in your own state under the sales tax system. There is no holy system that won't be corrupted so it would be better to clean up the system we have now rather then create some new system.


.

I disagree.
Cleaning up the current system is too hard a job as it is thousands of pages of too much complexity. Congress makes changes to the existing code an average of twice each day they are in session. BS favors etc. The FairTax eliminates this.
I don't like the flat tax.
I do like the FairTax.

It would not be easy to corrupt. At the register of Walmart it is calculated automatically and the state gets their taxes. You don't think some new sales are siphoning off state revenues on the sly do you? And there would be lots of folks available to investigate too - ex IRS employees.

[TropicCat]

Originally Posted by RAGNAR

Cute and accurate video. Krugman calls it pushing on a string.

[danjarch]

Originally Posted by therapy23

I disagree.
Cleaning up the current system is too hard a job as it is thousands of pages of too much complexity. Congress makes changes to the existing code an average of twice each day they are in session. BS favors etc. The FairTax eliminates this.
I don't like the flat tax.
I do like the FairTax.

It would not be easy to corrupt. At the register of Walmart it is calculated automatically and the state gets their taxes. You don't think some new sales are siphoning off state revenues on the sly do you? And there would be lots of folks available to investigate too - ex IRS employees.

It would be so easy to corrupt. From day one there would be battles with plenty of highly paid lobbyists. There will be plenty of pressure, complete with national TV commercials of half starves old folks, about how we shouldn't put the tax on basic foods. Of course then your into a lobby-fest on what is basic food.

If pasta is a basic food and cheese is a basic food then is frozen macaroni and cheese a basic food. If ground beef is a basic food is steak a basic food. Then you get into other basics like clothing and drugs.

But that's just corruption from the government. You still have companies that will try every trick to get around the fair tax. Is the tax on both products and services, or just products. If that's the case then you'll be able to buy a car for $5000 but it will cost you $12,000 to have it put together. Same for boats and anything else that can be sold in pieces.

Then you'll have outright corruption like small store owners that constantly report that 30 to 40 percent of their merchandise was stolen. If you put the tax on services then you'll really encourage plumbers and dentist to cheat. Under the current system there isn't that much incentive but with the possibility of getting a 15 to 20% discount, even their customers are going encourage them to take cash.

And that's before you add in the fad of the day. Right now if the fair tax was in place then solar panels and wind mills would be getting tax exemptions. It's not even really a question of whether they would be getting those exemptions but whether we would even know about it. It highly likely that they would create the exemption so that the companies charged the tax but get to keep them.

At&t, and Verizon got busted charging more in taxes then they were paying. And if my memory is correct, there are a number of companies in Florida that are exempt from sales tax even though they charge it at the register. I believe Daytona international speedway was one of them.

So don't even think for a moment that the fair tax or the flat tax is going to be harder to corrupt. It will be just like the existing taxes now. There will be no end of changes started the day after the law is passed. Even before it takes effect there will be exemptions for any number of politically connected groups and industries.

[danjarch]

Originally Posted by w1651

I understand everything you said here except how we go from a systematic vote on everything sent to our congress men and women to mob rule.
We wouldn't be voting we would be telling our elected officials how we want them to vote. There is a very big difference there.
As far as only a few people would actually use the system remains to be seen. And if you do choose to abstain and not tell your legislators what to do and they vote against your position You cannot Bitch about it because you didn't vote.
Is it perfect of course not but it would hold our elected officials more accountable.
Look at the fine congressman from the great state of New York last week. The man gets caught not paying taxes and other ethical challenges and he gets censured. We would be put under the jail for tax evasion if it were us.Just another example of the people at the top not being held to the same standards as we at the bottom are.

You get to mob rule because there is no way that any congressman is going to even pay much attention to the weekly poll unless you make it matter. But have you really thought about how this would work. Are they going to post all the bills up for vote including all the legalese.

You do know that there are dozens to hundreds of bills brought to the floor with out even a chance to of passage just so the lawmaker in question can go back to this group or that group and claim to have tried to get there concerns addressed. Are we supposed to come home every night and try to read pages and pages of legal mumbo gumbo, half of which doesn't stand a chance of passing, then register the way we want are law makers to vote.

The reality will be that few people bother until riled up by the parties over a particular law. Even then, few will read the actual bill, instead they will just go online and register their vote. Unless the congressmen were required by law to vote the way their constituets told them, then they would write off the results of the poll as partisan tactics. And they would be right. Those that bothered to register a vote on the site would most likely be the most partisan groups.

Hence the mob rule. What you want already exists. Most congressmen and senators got piles of letters and calls against TARP but voted for it anyway. I did't agree with the TARP law but such is representative democracy. You can call, email, or write your lawmakers about any law you want and most have web sites that allow you to even pick which current issue your emailing then about so it gets into the right category. That way they know how their district feels about the issue. They even have surveys on their web sites to get your opinion on the biggest current issues.

So if that's not enough then your talking about laws requiring your lawmaker to vote the way the public demands on every issue that comes before the congress. Once that comes about then we'll start to see mob rule since most of the time it will be special interest that use the sites, until the public gets really pissed off about something. But the public isn't likely to be in a listening mode at that point.

[w1651]

Originally Posted by danjarch

You get to mob rule because there is no way that any congressman is going to even pay much attention to the weekly poll unless you make it matter. But have you really thought about how this would work. Are they going to post all the bills up for vote including all the legalese.

You do know that there are dozens to hundreds of bills brought to the floor with out even a chance to of passage just so the lawmaker in question can go back to this group or that group and claim to have tried to get there concerns addressed. Are we supposed to come home every night and try to read pages and pages of legal mumbo gumbo, half of which doesn't stand a chance of passing, then register the way we want are law makers to vote.

The reality will be that few people bother until riled up by the parties over a particular law. Even then, few will read the actual bill, instead they will just go online and register their vote. Unless the congressmen were required by law to vote the way their constituets told them, then they would write off the results of the poll as partisan tactics. And they would be right. Those that bothered to register a vote on the site would most likely be the most partisan groups.

Hence the mob rule. What you want already exists. Most congressmen and senators got piles of letters and calls against TARP but voted for it anyway. I did't agree with the TARP law but such is representative democracy. You can call, email, or write your lawmakers about any law you want and most have web sites that allow you to even pick which current issue your emailing then about so it gets into the right category. That way they know how their district feels about the issue. They even have surveys on their web sites to get your opinion on the biggest current issues.

So if that's not enough then your talking about laws requiring your lawmaker to vote the way the public demands on every issue that comes before the congress. Once that comes about then we'll start to see mob rule since most of the time it will be special interest that use the sites, until the public gets really pissed off about something. But the public isn't likely to be in a listening mode at that point.

You do make it matter. It will matter when your congressman or woman comes up for reelection.You could get a percentage of how he or she votes with or against you. Easy!
Have you ever sent a email to your elected officials? I have and you don't even know if it reached them. I think you have it in your head Americans a stupid and depraved idiots. We are not and can actually if allowed to think for ourselves. We know right from wrong and we know how to read.
By sending them a vote you can statistically manage the way they vote for or against you. And it may actually reduce the amount of paperwork and or bills that get to the floor of the house or senate. Because we all know what we all want or need more of are laws.
So what is wrong with my senator voting the way I want him or her to vote. This is a representative republic. That's the way it has been set up your point is what?
Tarp is a good example of what I am talking about. Along with Health care, the fanny and freddy bailouts, as well as reregulation of the banks. Did anyone listen to you about those little bills on the floor of the house or senate? How did that email work for you?