Market crash: are we there yet ?

[RAGNAR]

Originally Posted by w1651

Ya but he still has to leave the house. Or is he living in a cave on a deserted island?

Ah, who is Ragnar?

(Couldn't resist . . .)

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Bene505

Anyone got a sensical refutation of Ragnar's posts? Or is it all mud slinging?

Seriously, he brings up some points and I see no one providing a good argument against them. That's actually a point I've made several time before. The floor is yours, let's hear your argument.

Regards,
Brad

I gave up on Rags a long time go. I have no idea what he is writing. If it is the usual Rand drivel, I will continue to ignore. If there is something else, let me know.

[RAGNAR]

Originally Posted by jackdale

I gave up on Rags a long time go. I have no idea what he is writing. If it is the usual Rand drivel, I will continue to ignore. If there is something else, let me know.

I don't remember you ever putting up a reasonable response to anything I posted. Other than the usual references to skepticism, need constitutes a right to the property of others, silly references to Rousseau as some sort of guiding light to freedom, Locke as an individualist on moral grounds, snide attacks like the above on both myself and Rand, defending school systems that are collapsing by any measure you care to name so that unionized educators who are more interested in social engineering than instilling basic knowledge and skills can continue to get paid more than they could ever earn on the open market, and exalting the superiority of a commune medical system that relies on the only somewhat free medical system left in the world to do the half ass job it does, all you had was a school maser's tone and Wikipedia references.

You never refuted anything I put up, let alone take on Rand meaningfully. And to repeat: as much as I admire the woman's fiction and philosophy, and I do think she's in the Top Three as an author and one of perhaps five giants in philosophy, I don't consider myself to be an Objectivist.

And BTW: you managed to unIgnore me when you couldn't contain yourself once you figured out that I was OK with torture under very specific circumstances. So while you're far better at the Ignore thing than the other religiously Left members of this forum, you're not exactly sticking to your drama queen declaration -- stunning.

[BentSailor]

Originally Posted by Bene505

Anyone got a sensical refutation of Ragnar's posts? Or is it all mud slinging?

Seriously, he brings up some points and I see no one providing a good argument against them. That's actually a point I've made several time before. The floor is yours, let's hear your argument.

You'll find that there are alot of people that have the guy on forum-filtered "Ignore" (in other words, SailNet doesn't actually show us his posts). Unless someone else quotes them in their post, Rags is blessedly invisible to us.

If you have a particular point you want to discuss, whether it came from Rags or not, feel free to post your own question dealing with it. You still get your answer and I don't need to dip into the insanity of trying to work out whatever it is RAGNAR is ranting about today.

[TropicCat]

Ragnar isn't worth discussing

It's a fact that no one knows what will happen to long-term interest rates when the Federal Reserve ends its $600 billion QE II program. It's why there's so much uncertainty in the stock market these days. I also should mention that most folks aren't aware that American inventory levels are at their highest since September 2006, or that new order bookings are at the lowest levels since September 2009. Profits look OK, (why not, everything has been off shored) but corporate sales are dropping.

It's a fact they every respectable economic analysis firm is downgrading their Global economic growth forecasts as fast as they can. All of the economic data is horrible. Even the Federal Reserve downgraded its projections for the full year, to under 3 percent growth and what's even worse is that Bernanke said “.....we don’t have a precise read on why this slower pace of growth is persisting.....” In other words what's going on is unprecedented.

It's a fact that to calculate monthly unemployment, the Bureau of Labor Statistics assumes that jobs are created by newly formed companies that its analysts believe—but can't prove, under the so-called birth/death model and that they admit they are guessing. In 2009 they overestimated this by almost 1 million jobs and had to adjust this in 2010. I think they have blown it again as all studies show the American small company job engine has ground to a halt. This has nothing to do with tax cuts, and everything to do with job loss as folks making $7.00 an hour can't buy what they used to when they had real jobs.

It's also a fact that home equity has long been the only asset on the balance sheet of the average American family, and that all home*owners are suffering from housing prices that have, on average, declined 33 percent (compare that to the Great Depression drop of 31 percent). Case-Shiller is saying that another 20% drop is very probable. Hey, they been 100% right in their predictions so far. People making $7.00 an hour can't afford a house.

It's a fact that GDP is no longer an accurate measurement of what's going on. That America is still in recession and that it's getting worse. It's no accident that the general economic mood is one of alarm. The Conference Board measure of U.S. consumer confidence slumped to 60.8 percent in May, down from 66 percent in April and well below the average of 73 in past recessions, never mind the 100-plus numbers in good times. Never before has confidence been this low in the 23rd month of a recovery. We are in a "modern depression."

This is where we stand 3 years into the worse recession since the Great Depression. It's also a fact the the Republican party knows all of this, and also knows that if they can cut government spending now, things will get worse in America, not better. In fact .... much worse. This is a calculated move on their part to gain the whitehouse next year, and it will probably work as their base is either blind or ignorant. They are blatantly throwing Americans under the 'bus' for political gain.

Unless Congress comes up with something that makes sense, we are in for an even rougher ride. All indicators are that Republicans have no intention of making Obama look good and that Obama hasn't figured out that he has to actually battle them to get anything done. We have a ball-less President and an opposition party bent on making this depression deeper.

We are screwed.

[PBzeer]

Yeah, them damn Republicans need to cave in, let Obama put us a few trillion more in debt, and everything will be hunky-dory. We just aren't taking enough money away from the people that earn it, and give it to the one's that don't. It's just not fair, I'm telling ya.

[RAGNAR]

Unbelievably expensive "investments" that have never, ever shown anything like a return -- sounds about right . . .

[TropicCat]

Originally Posted by PBzeer

Yeah, them damn Republicans need to cave in, let Obama put us a few trillion more in debt, and everything will be hunky-dory. We just aren't taking enough money away from the people that earn it, and give it to the one's that don't. It's just not fair, I'm telling ya.

LOL ----- John..... John...... look at my post and see how well your tax cuts are working for America..... Don't blame my post for what's clearly our reality.

Speaking of your tax cuts ... would you like to post a Treasury graph here showing how tax collections went up after your tax cuts? I'm certain everyone would like to see it, including me. Also, post the graph showing the terrific economic recovery those tax cuts brought us.

I'd suggest it's time to stop beating a dead horse, cut out what's clearly Republican propaganda, and figure a way out of this mess.

Incidentally, I'm not advocating stimulus unless it opens a path to sustained economic recovery. But then again, I didn't get myself elected by telling my constituents that I was going to fix everything...

[PBzeer]

Oh yes, tax cuts are the ruination of civilization. Spending has nothing to do with it. If only we'd kept on the path FDR and LBJ set for us. Why ..... we could be just like England by now, or, more likely, Greece.

All the "LOL's" in the world won't change the fact, if no one is creating wealth, there's nothing to tax. And why put your money at risk, by creating jobs and more wealth, just to have someone take it away from you?

[RAGNAR]

Originally Posted by TropicCat

Speaking of your tax cuts ... would you like to post a Treasury graph here showing how tax collections went up after your tax cuts? I'm certain everyone would like to see it, including me. Also, post the graph showing the terrific economic recovery those tax cuts brought us.

Which recent tax cuts of note weren't accompanied by a massive expansion of government, so that the simpleton graph you're demanding - from Treasury, no less - could illustrate the impact of tax cuts?

It's a shame that we don't put Keynes & Friends through a similar test . . .