Castro Dead

[SanderO]

People are doing all sorts of things to get into the USA... from Mexico and Canada where the border is porous and more easily passed than with a makeshift raft across open waters.

Cuba has been blockaded by the USA for half a century and despite that it has a lower infant mortality rate than the USA and higher per capita for doctors. They have produced some amazing dancers, artists and athletes despite all.

It is no paradise and like MOST countries the government is all too intrusive in the lives of the citizens. Latin countries are / were mostly peasants who had little and a tiny middle merchant class and then the wealthy over lords who owned all the land. You know who was booted out of Cuba and who received the benefits of that. It has been distributed to the peasants who DO have a better existence than they did under the oppressive plantation system.

Many people are seduced by the material comforts in the USA and will do anything to get access to them. And there is no doubt that the west has a much higher standard of living and a larger middle class. But tens of millions of Americans live on less than $7 a day.

I don't approve of any form of repression coming from Castro or anyone. I don't think Cuba is a paradise, but I would rather not see another Batisita. who was a ruthless dictator on the right and quite corrupt to boot.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

jef
sv shiva

[sailaway21]

If you believe that the peasants of Cuba own the land, ie..the resources of wealth generation, I would advise that you're drinking too much kool-aid. Cuba's infant mortality rate, if you even believe any stats coming out of Cuba, can be easily explained by the abortion proliferation which removes unhealthy fetuses prior to infancy.

Those tens of millions of Americans who live on less than $7 per day are of Dutch extraction and we like to think of ourselves as thrifty. We, as well as the thriving populace of the US, earn far more than $7 a day, we just choose to hang on to our gains. Since $7 is the equivalent of the deposit on 70 pop bottles it is a source of amazement to me that tens of millions of impoverished citizens would not choose to double their daily income by picking up 70 or so, thereby acheiving economic nirvana at the cost of an hour's walk. Believing such a statistic is entirely in keeping with a belief that freedom, liberty, and prosperity are for the taking in Cuba.

A few articles on Cuba and her hiostory under Castro, should it interest you. Most are based on the thoughts of actual Cubans, on and off the island, and not from some ivory tower, say, in Madison, Wisconsin or the like.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art..._sickness.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...n_america.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...communist.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121101166.html


Ironically, your last statement pretty well sums up Castro in toto. Your apparent desire to refight the Batista regime, which has been gone for longer than 80% of the world's peoples have been alive, is baffling. At some point, it is time to discuss current events regardless of our historical concerns, which we are powerless to change in any event.

[SanderO]

Read Howard Zinn, He explains it all rather well.

[cardiacpaul]

Sander,

My S/O is Cuban. Has family there. Heres what she knows.
(read about "thecuban" elsewhere around here)
Her familys mail from the US is regularly intercepted. Their telephone calls( when available) are monitored. (and not by the U.S.)
Their privately owned family business was seized as well as all of their personal property many years ago.

They now work in the same business, same building, same desks and chairs, the only difference? They work for the government, not themselves.

They get a 25.00 per month food "coupon" for lack of a better term. Their wages? about 8.00 per day. They have to pay rent to the gov't for the HOME THEY USED TO OWN of about 70.00 per month. You cannot just "move" to the other side of town, that has to be approved with a myriad of undulations. Your careers are chosen for you. There is little free enterprise at all.

Yes, they have an astounding infant survival rate. ANY birth defect is aborted, no choice at all. It is just done, from a cleft palate to spina bifida. If there is a history of mental retardation or defect, you don't have children, period. So, lets say your sister had a child with Downs Syndrome and it wasn't "selectively processed" . You and your spouse would not be allowed to have kiddos. Sorry 'bout your luck, if your spouse became pregnant, the fetus would be aborted. If she again became pregnant, she' have another abortion, and her tubes would be tied. Deal with it.
There are almost NO unwed mothers in Cuba with infants. Why? Because if you are unwed your fetus is aborted.

Oh, yea, almost forgot, you have to get "permission" from the gov't to be wed. not like here where you wander in pay your 5.00 and get a license, In Cuba you have an application process where you are separately interviewed by no less than 3 people then your "party" affiliations are checked, then you wait for up to 6 months for the license.

Health care? Sure, no charge. Of course The standards aren't quite what we're used to. Ceclor, a common antibiotic is unavailable. Pennicillin is good for what ails ya isn't it?
Pain medication is almost exclusively tylenol with codine. Thats about it.

Forget about cancer treatment, you get surgery and stitched, hope that works for ya.

Did you know that in many hospitals glass syringes rubber plungers and reused needles are standard? (think of the US in the 50's) NOT single use needles?

Yes, they have more Doctors per capita than almost any western country. Did you know they count secondary education (think high school seniors that are accepted into med school) and Veterinarians in those numbers?

Yea, Cuba is a just dandy place to live.

[PBzeer]

Jef - I would assume you think Hugo Chavez is a savior of the Venuzualan people as well, along with people like Ortega in Nicarugua.

Even a curorsory review would show Cuba is only barely less repressive than North Korea. Any dictorial government, and make no mistake, Cuba is a dictatorship, depends on only one thing, brute force, and the fear of it.

Your characterization of the Cuban people who fled this dictatorship as "Mafia", along with your implied stereotyping of anyone considered right wing, is not only knee-jerk spouting of liberal talking points, but opens yourself to stereotyping as well.

Your willing acceptance of the Ptomekinian facade that Cuba presents shows a distinct lack of any indepth examination of the facts.

[SanderO]

I fully support any efforts to break the control of multinational corporations on our lives. I thought Salvador Allende was a great man, and I think Chavez is also working for the Venezuelan people. I don't think any of those in power is free of corruption.

I don't know the facts about all Cuban exiles, but I do know Posada Carilles was a terrorist and was responsible for exploding a Cuban jet liner and is a "hero" and protected by Miami Cubans.

I believe that the attempted kidnapping of Elian Gonzalez was strongly supported by Miami Cubans and those who thought he should be returned to his father was harshly treated.

Yea... Many exiles Cubans are extremely right wing in their politics. That doesn't sit well with me.

I also know that they have illegal paramilitary groups, and have staged illegal attacks, despite the fact that the USA government has had a anti Cuban policy for 4 decades.

Danial Ortega was re elected to head Nicaragua.

[xort]

Ortega was relected...Sadam Husien, another great man, was elected by a 100% plurality.

Oh those evil multinational corporations and their grip on us. I feel so repressed.

Sander, please reread the report from firsthand observation of 'the cuban' and tell me that is better than what we have in the 'free' world.
Oh, we are supposed to be perfect and if we are not, we should be destroyed so that a benevolent dictator can rule us for our own good. After all, we Amerikans are the most evil force to ever live on planet earth.

[sevseasail]

I lived in Cuba for a wile and it is pretty much how cardiacpaul describe it; I could add some more like the fact that your penalty for killing a cow for meat is more hevily punished than commiting murder because the live stock belongs to the goverment.
Statistics coming out of cuba ....lol, do you realy belive it?
The gather people in demostrations of support to show on tv to the rest of the world by threatening those people with loosing the """ privileges"" they have.

beautiful country with very nice people stock in the 40's. Going there it's a great way of traveling in time although it's very sad to see that people have to live like that.

[sailaway21]

Jef,
You're right about those multinationals controlling our lives. Currently mine seems to be in the clutches of Nabisco, Dolly Madison division. Even on the sailing site my computer keeps popping out Ding-Dongs and Ho-Ho's.

I'm trying to get under the control, if not the payroll, of Halliburton. Despite my membership in the vast right-wing conspiracy, complete with T-shirt, I am unable to get transferred out of the junk food division of corporate dominance into something more personally rewarding. My previous efforts with Fiat, Ferrari Racing division, have also gone to naught. Is there a link or password I'm lacking?

Is it the fact that they are Cuban right-wingers that doesn't sit well with you or just that they are right-wingers? Or is it something more basic; the fact that they are allowed to choose whatever political beliefs they wish without reference or concern of their government? Are they puppets of some corporate cabal intent on possession of the rich resources of Cuba? If so, wouldn't you think that corporation would give up on waiting fro Castro's death and just take over Haiti instead, it's been up for rent for some time.

[SanderO]

I am not going to continue on about politics on a sailing site. I don't think any anecdotal experience speaks for a nation of individuals.

I am not saying that Cuba is a "paradise". It is a poor country like Haiti or DR or Jamaica and it has been boycotted by the USA.

I don't care for the ideas of the right regardless of the nation of origin.

Socialism seems to work fine in Norway, at least the socialized parts of the country.

I don't think the peasants of democratic "free" Mexico, Guatamala, or El Salvador are better of than those of Cuba do you?