The Decline of America?

[sailaway21]

Some of the issues raised in the "Heroes" thread seem to make this article of interest. It's not as long (whew!) as the article in that thread but does cover the span of US history to an extent. The latter portions of the article are of particular interest to those commenting on the present US military. Someone recently posted that reality is less true to the viewer than perception. This article goes a long way to validate the point, in a historical context.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...declinism.html

[wind_magic]

I agree with much of what the article in your link said, that in general America is still ascending, I guess that is a good way to summarize what it said. Decline is often talked about in various circles, but America has only become more powerful over time and I don't believe our power is waning.

However, as a contrast I offer this ...

We do have a values problem in America. And I don't mean drugs, drinking, and crap like that. I mean that more and more people have forgotten what freedom really is. I feel that I talk with very few people that say they feel free, that say they feel that they are in control of their own destiny, and feel that they are powerful and are free to act.

There are of course people out there who talk in terms of this being their country, that they need to change things themselves, that they feel responsible for whatever is going on, etc. But that is rare now, and in great contrast to the huge number of people who seem to feel like they are subjects of another power, or that someone else should do something about whatever the problem of the day is, etc. It is natural for children and young adults to feel they are actors in a world that is not under their control, but by the time you hit like 30 years old at least I think it's normal to feel that you are pretty much one of the men who is actually running things, and that if anything needs fixing you'll be one of the ones that is going to fix it. I just don't see that in people now for the most part, it's like people have become eternal children waiting for their mommy to fix everything for them. I mostly just hear people complaining like they aren't part of the team anymore, like they are spectators watching something on television that has nothing to do with them, like they are just visitors here in the United States. I don't understand that at all, and there is a lot of it out there.

Much of this attitude does contribute in a positive way to American power in the world. The less people take responsibility for their own government, the more power can become centralized. If 9 out of 10 people aren't paying any attention, then 1 in 10 people are actually running the place. And that centralization of power does create a more powerful America. Whether it creates a better America is a matter of debate.

When soldiers came back from World War II there was a different mindset. They had suffered and fought for the country and participated directly in Americas success and failure. Soldiers returning from the war OWNED this country, nobody told them they were going to do this, or they were going to do that, they really felt that they themselves were the ones who were going to come back and build houses, roads, schools, etc, and the late 40's and early 50's were a boom time for development. Returning soldiers didn't say things like "somebody should build a road over there", they put together an organization and said "let's go build a road over there", and just did it. If a community center was needed, they just built it. Today the air is much different - people don't do that anymore. Many people feel that they have been born into a world that isn't really theirs, I think in large part because there hasn't been the kind of adversity (thankfully) that forces people to take responsibility for what is going on.

I'm not saying that a dumbed down public will eventually yield a Caesar that is hell bent on world domination, but I am saying that a wildly powerful America might not be the best America, and might be indicative of a problem. If that power comes from run away taxation, centralization of power into the hands of very few (government and commercial), funneling of wealth to a very few hands, etc, then I don't think that's a good thing. Sure, America could be even more powerful if we were all just little worker bees and we had a king to direct all our efforts into one common direction ... but that isn't what America is supposed to be all about.

Democrats and Republicans both realize this is going on. Democrats say there are "two Americas", one for poor folks and one for rich, blah blah blah. And Republicans say that is because people don't take personal responsibility and blah blah blah. But what is really going on is that power is being centralized into fewer hands, and most people are taking less responsibility for what happens in this country. And even people who really do want to do something about it don't seem to get any traction because the mindset has been dumbed down to the point that anybody who does actually care looks like a fanatic, people can't even understand the concept of trying to affect change anymore. Most people seem to believe it's unfixable, and even the most die hard of the progressives on all sides often end up throwing their hands in the air and giving up because for the most part people just don't seem to give a sh#t.

[Rockter]

I have been there and lived there and I saw only ONE non-sustaiable problem.

Rampant foreign borrowing.

Give it time, and someone else will own the place.... they will send each and every one of you the bill for the rent... interrest payments.

In discussions, I found very few Americans, and very few British, understood what a budget deficit really meant, and where it is heading.

The rest of the place was well-run, and not too bad. I liked the place, and bought my boat there too.

[danjarch]

Sway, that was a good arcticle. Reminds me why I don't watch the news much any more. There is still a huge amount of energy in this country. I don't see things changing any time soon.

[retclt]

"Democrats and Republicans both realize this is going on. Democrats say there are "two Americas", one for poor folks and one for rich, blah blah blah. And Republicans say that is because people don't take personal responsibility and blah blah blah."



The approval rating for Congress slipped to 18 percent last week. Lower than the days of the House Banking Scandal. In fact, it's the lowest since they've been keeping track. Just watch what happens in the next election . . . . . . . nothing . . . . . . . as usual. I forgot who said it, Jefferson, Franklin? "We get the government we deserve".

America is King of the hill right now but I'm one of those who are rapidly losing hope. I don't think anyone can knock us off. I think we are intentionally throwing ourselves off. I got out of the building business because of the millions of "undocumented" immigrants from the south "Doing the job I wasn"t willing to do"!!! I blame the Government that refuses to defend our borders. Thought I'd use my education and go into the Semi Conductor industry. I absolutely love what I do but I don't think the industry will be here long enough to see me through retirement. It's all going to Asia. I mean all of it! We're giving everything to China, Malaysia, Vietnam, India, etc. Try to find a toaster made in America. If you do let me know, I’ll buy it! I found a golf shirt I liked last night but had to pass it up - made I Vietnam. I grew up without a father due to Vietnam. I buy American when ever possible but geeeeeeez, where do you find it any more. I bought some great quality Shackles recently. I was excited to see "Made in Italy" on them. I thought, "Thank God they weren’t made in China"! I love Europe. You still get quality from there but I think they'll complete selling themselves out too before my life is over. I don't worry so much about myself, I'll do fine. I worry about my Kids. The morning announcements at their school are done in Spanish then English. The Re-Conquista, as they call it here in Texas, is on! As the kids try to decide on careers I try to steer them toward what I think there might still be a career in. I'm not much help. When we succeed in becoming a service industry alone in this country - goodbye middle class.

I miss the world I grew up in.

I do vote. I am active politically. Though disillusioned, I’ll never give up.

Thank God for sailing. There I’m at peace. Just me, the wind, and a sipping glass of Pussers.

[tdw]

Interesting.

Empires come and go, empires shrink then re expand. Look at the British. You would have thought that having lost the American colonies the BE would be forever in decline yet some might say that it's greatest days were still to come.

The one problem with predicting the decline of the US as an Empire is that the US is not an empire built on physical conquest and in the main it was the struggle to control far flung real estate that led to the collapse of previous world leading empires. The US does not have that problem.

Where the doom merchants have it right , however, is in saying that the US has lost the moral argument. Being caught out telling fibs on too many occasions has left many inhabitants of this planet doubting pretty everything the US government says. As one who grew up believeing that the US was the symbol of emerging freedom that is a pretty disappointing outcome. Can that situation be reversed ? I doubt it very much indeed.

[retclt]

Originally Posted by tdw

Interesting.

Empires come and go, empires shrink then re expand.

.

I feel like I'm in the Ancient Roman Empire. The greatest empire on earth that committed suicide. It fell from within and never came back.

As for our "WORD" in the world. The Liberals in this country have made it worthless. We go to war to defend ourselves and they run behind us stabbing us in the back every chance they get. They send the Kerry's to Australia and other places to spread their anti-American $!#%!. We elected a new Congress with a Democrat majority who promised change and progress but haven't done a d@#n thing outside of "GET BUSH - GET BUSH - GET BUSH"!!! They're obsessed with beating up on BUSH and anyone or anything (including the truth) that gets in their way. The conservatives (Including W) refuse stand up and show a little backbone. I'm fed up to my ears with the whole lot. And watch . . .we'll send them all back to give it to us over and over and over. We are truly a nation of sheep.

God I miss Reagan! We were a proud and powerful nation when the Gipper led.

- And God bless Austrailia! They've stood with us in every war/conflict since our birth. I've never met an Austrailian I didn't like! Tried to out drink a couple in Italy last rear - didn't work. Oh well maybe next time . . . . . . .okay . . . . . . . No I don't think I could every out drink those guy's but it was sure fun trying.

I'm going out for a beer now. Fosters sounds good.

Cheers!

[bestfriend]

Oh boy, here we go again. *sigh*

Lets get rid of term limits and go in a direction, ANY direction.
I am tired of watching the political tennis match.

[sailaway21]

Just read the article, BF. Then you can sigh, theatrically. I can tell yer' in a mood-don't be stirin' no sh** up! (g)

[bestfriend]

Alright, I'll read it. The next sound you will hear is the sound of an Anchor Steam opening (bottles only), and my arse indenting the couch.

My remark above was aimed at those who can take a perfectly good discussion and start pointing fingers with the notion that it will solve anything. It was not a sigh about the topic. I believe I stated several months back, in a fit of moral rightness, that America would go the route of Rome and I wanted out. I do still believe that we will be our own undoing, or that revolution will take us down from within, but I know I won't be around to see it, and my son might not either. I wanted out then, and still do today, because of the moral decline. But that may not be limited to this country, and could well be worse in others. As can be said of the "market" thread, the sky is falling here too. Its all how you look at it, eh?

I ordered the cliff notes for the article on the heroes thread, and will reply shortly. Other than that, all I can say is don't eat grapes while you drink beer (blech!), stick to the chips.