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  #141 (permalink)  
Old 06-19-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freesail99 View Post
I just found this, may be a bit off topic saltwater fuel.

Wow!
I wonder how much power is required to produce the radio waves. If it makes more than it takes, it could be revolutionary.

Steve
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  #142 (permalink)  
Old 06-19-2008
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Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Lemme see if a country boy can get it straight.
If we don't drill and eventually tighten the market up (it's called supply and demand in every class I ever took) the oil companies make less and the consumer pays the same or less...
- and if we do drill it won't benefit the consumer at all (ignoring the fact that we'd have a oil supply in 15 years that we do not have now) just make profits for the oil companies?

I'm sure that makes sense in the city, but where I grew up it's nonsense.

If I was selling water and my well was going dry I'd sure as heck plant a well somewhere else and get more water to sell - that my friends is business 101 in the sticks.
If I'm selling water to you for 10 cents a gallon and a customer who's thirstier than you offers me 15 cents a gallon, guess what my new price is? That's called economics 101.

If I know my well is running empty, or a whole lot of thirsty people are about to become customers I do everything I can to get rights to land and drilling permits to make a new well. That's called management 101.

In common sense 101 we learned all that, it wasn't even an advanced course.
Free lessons available. It appears some of you need them.
Or, if your well was running dry, you spend millions in an ad campaighn to confuse consumers and voters (ad campaighn 101) and spend hundreds of millions to lobby politicians (politics 101) so you can make billions of dollars in profits (greed 101) and get NO closer to solving the energy crisis (denial 101).

But that is too complicated... all those nastly little facts and college stuff. Best to just put out a bumper sticker: Drill Now, Drill Here, Pay Less.

If it sounds good, people will vote for it.

- CD
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  #143 (permalink)  
Old 06-19-2008
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Cool link Free....will be interested to see if energy in is less than energy out but need story in any event.
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  #144 (permalink)  
Old 06-19-2008
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My Challenge....

Ok, here we go Sway and Cam.

First of all, I cannot replace 25% of oil imports because I cannot calculate the amount of electricity used that would be replaced. In other words, what is the electricity burnt by the alternative means?

However, I feel this will satisfy our argument. I decided to calculate what could be calculated - the cost to get the US Electrical Grid TOTALLY off of anything that is not replenishable. This includes coal AND oil. No more foreign imports. I believe these numbers will also calculate in a large spare volume which we need.

I have made a SINCERE effort to be accurate, but do not stand by and say it is 100% accurate. However, it is pretty ballpark. I have linked my sources and footnotes. You can verify them. Please feel free to address any inaccuracies.

In order to get us off of oil on ALL electrical uses:

1) Geothermal can produce 100gwe (footnote1) for a one billion dollar investment. For a 100 billion dollar investment, you could produce 100,000 gwe/year. That is a 100 billion dollar investment.

2) Solar currently produces 3145 megawatts. (footnote 2). I would advise increasing that in the areas where it was doable (ie, the southwest). Assuming no large breaks and no competition, 1 billion dollars would provide 76,923 homes with electricity. If we propose doing 20% of all us homes (that majority being mostly SW homes), that would be [(107,000,000*20%)/76923]*$2,000,000,000= $278 billion to supply 20% of all us homes with solar. I estimate that number to fall considerably... I am giving the highest possible at full retail prices with independent grids. A single solar plant would drop these costs exponentially and would likely fall close in line to wind. That is 234,000 gwh produced. $278 Billion invested.

3) Wind. (See footnote 4 &5). Wind currently generates 48 bkwh in the US, or about 1% of US supply. I suggest increasing that number to 20%. This would require a $43 billion dollar investment. (See footnote 5). The cost of this wind would be 2% more than not doing it. That is 960,000 gwh. $43 Billion investment.

4) Nuclear. (Footnote 6)Nuclear currently produces 807000gwh in the US with 66 sites. I would propose building 221 nuclear sites. That total cost would be approximately $574.6 Billion dollars, since the average site costs approximately $2.6 billion to build. That averages to 12,227 gwh/site-year. That average reactor cost is $2.6 billion. That would produce 3,509,227 gwh. Because there are many areas where wind, solar, and geo may not be the best solution, you can substitute that with nuclear reactors.

Total cost: $574.6+43+278+100 = $995.6 Billion dollars. This assumes no competition in large quantities. Total energy produced from these means (not accounting for others currently in production) = 4,803,227 gwh… or about total US consumption.

Of note is that this scenario does not account for the current production from hydro, wind, solar, or geo. However, for about one trillion dollars, you now have a replenishable, long lasting, clean energy source for our country.

Assuming 126,316,181 households in the USA, that is a $7,916 investment/household – assuming NO business investment (which accounts for 2/3 of the use). If you average that cost out over 20 years, that is a $400/year investment per household for electricity.

I have not added up the number of jobs created or costs in electricity saved. I cannot do that. It is impossible. But that gives you a fair feel for the sum of money to do it. That is almost two full years of oil imports (at 400-600 billion year), or less than twice the cost of the Iraq War.

Footnote1= http://geothermal.inel.gov/publicati...mal_energy.pdf

Footnote 2=http://www.earth-policy.org/Indicators/2004/indicator12.htm

Footnote 3=http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/reps/enduse/er01_us.html

Footnote 4=http://www.awea.org/newsroom/pdf/Fast_Facts.pdf

Footnote 5=http://www.20percentwind.org/20p.aspx?page=Overview

Footnote 6=http://www.doe.gov/
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  #145 (permalink)  
Old 06-19-2008
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CD...I'm gonna take some time to study that as it obviously took you a long time to put together. What I have to say right now though is that you have not responded to the question asked:
What energy sources do we have locally that can be sustained for a decade or two (your words) that are anywhere near capable of replacing even 25% of the btu's we get from oil?
This means NOW and over he next two decades. 75% of the energy you propose is from nukes which take 20 years to build. This merely reinforces the need for oil reserves over the next 20 years...and the more the better to keep the price as low as possible and our balance of payments down and dollar strong.

Having said that. Your scenario for what 20 years out might look like is worth considering but will require a lot more research on my part. so...I'll take a partial "Sapper Syndrome" on this one for a while!
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  #146 (permalink)  
Old 06-19-2008
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CD,
I echo what Cam said and I also need to look at what you posted. But I have to say my first reaction is "who the hell is going to do that". Do you really think 221 nuclear sites are going to be built by someone? That borders on preposterous!
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  #147 (permalink)  
Old 06-19-2008
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Cam,
One note, todays nukes can be built and on line in aboit 6 to 8 years after the license is approved and contracts awarded. It doesn't change anything, just wanted to clarify that.
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  #148 (permalink)  
Old 06-19-2008
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Cam and tom,

I have spent 2 full days putting that together. I hope it is ballpark accurate. Unfortunately, some of these facts come from sites that only show their side. But I feel for a trillion dollars, US electrical interests would be secure foreign influence. That alone will change the global political structure.

Please, please, please read this and understand. I would be 100 prcnt drilling here if it made ANY difference. It will make NO difference. None. If you want, drill here. But research it. It will make absolutely NO difference here. None. Zero. Zip. Notta. You will realize, even at todays rediculous prices, a few pennies a gallon on gas. It would have NO effect on what I discussed because there simply is not sufficient oil (not even theoretical).

WE DO NOT HAVE OIL IN THE US.

You are being fooled. The penny is under the other nut shell. Even moderate republicans have seen this and gone against party lines. It is a lie fabricated by those with a buck to make.

Take a little time to follow the money and what we (not the oil co) get.

-CD
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  #149 (permalink)  
Old 06-19-2008
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Brian,
You've put a tremendous effort into this and for that I'm very appreciative. I don't think we're disagreeing on a lot, just weather it's worth the money, time, and effort to drill for oil now. On that point the best we can do is agree to disagree. But it has been fun and educational going back and forth in a really civilized manner. I think that's what makes Sailnet so great. Whatever the outcome there is no question we have a serious problem today. But hey, we all have sailboats so we are doing our part to help.
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and here i was waitin for the spouses to do the jell-o rasslin' to settle it.
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