Drilling for Oil in the Bakken formation

[Cruisingdad]

I ask eany of you to give me facts... FACTS... that drilling there will help us and be a good long term answer.

I have researched the matter and found the Pro-Drill advocates simply looking to make a buck - and a quick one at that. The rest of us will realize almost nothing out of it. NOTHING.

Show me facts. I am showing you plain facts from a PRO-DRILL site - not even the other sides. There are also a number of other sites with professionals discussing this matter that think it is a joke.

It makes no sense. Invest in other things. I am all for getting off of foreign oil, just do not see this helping one iota.

- CD

[erps]

Just one note or observation, let's just use the 5% number of today's consumption for argument's sake. I hear what you're saying CD, I would just point out that I think in 15 years there's a pretty good chance that the price of oil will be so high, that we'll already be using other energy sources and using oil a lot more efficiently. That 5% ratio will be a totally different ratio 15 years from now, maybe it will be 50% by then, who knows.

[Cruisingdad]

Originally Posted by erps

Just one note or observation, let's just use the 5% number of today's consumption for argument's sake. I hear what you're saying CD, I would just point out that I think in 15 years there's a pretty good chance that the price of oil will be so high, that we'll already be using other energy sources and using oil a lot more efficiently. That 5% ratio will be a totally different ratio 15 years from now, maybe it will be 50% by then, who knows.

I agree... 15 years, it will be unbelieveable high. We may have already reached peak output (if you know whta that is, if not go back a few pages I presented links to it). What we use as a country is only a piece of the puzzle. China and India are growing quickly. You might find them dictating the value/use of oil more than us in the future. All the more reason to get off of it.

However, you will not have anything in 15 years if you do not make a real, concerted effort now. NOW... and that does not mean spending 15 years to suck out ANWR to save a nickel. That would, on a high estimate (assuming 1:1 crude to gas... impossible) mean .20/gallon. That is paying $3.80 for gas now instead of $4.00. Big freaking deal. That ain't going to help my checkbook one bit and I drive a F-150!!!

To use your own argument against you, what if 15 years ago (1995) we had focused on building nuke plants and invested in solar and wind and ethanol (or other things)??? I mean a real, distinct effort to get off of it while oil was CHEAP! Maybe it would not be hurting so bad now.

What always happens in America is a knee-jerk reaction. Oil is high and everyone wants a immediate fix. DRILL....DRILL... DRILL... it will make no difference. Instead of kicking ourselves for not drilling 15 years ago, we should be kicking ourselves for not taking action to get off of foreign energy 15 years ago when it would not have hurt. Now it hurts. Unfortunately, you don't learn how not to fall unless you fall a few times.

[teshannon]

CD,
Unfortunately Harry Reid and the Dems are doing everything they can to discourage building nuke plants. If someone placed an oder tomorrow it would be 8 to 10 years before a nuke came on line. With current technologies solar and wind are not even close to being a reliable energy source. At best they can provide a very small means of helping with peak demands but the environmental cost in land use alone is tremendous. We're not talking one or two windmills, we're talking farms that stretch for miles. Everyone will want one in the back yard! The technology to store the energy on off peak hours does not exist today and it will be many years before it exists, if ever. So the bottom line is we are saying the same thing, there is no short term answer.
No one here has said you go after the oil to the exclusion of everything else. Just the opposite- you try to get nukes to be more viable econominally, you continue research on solar and wind, and you begin to build more drilling and refining capacity. I read that there is oil off Florida and California and there is more oil in the Gulf. You go after it all and take what you can get. If you don't we'll be sitting here 15 years from now having the same discussion.

[Cruisingdad]

Originally Posted by teshannon

CD,
Unfortunately Harry Reid and the Dems are doing everything they can to discourage building nuke plants. If someone placed an oder tomorrow it would be 8 to 10 years before a nuke came on line. With current technologies solar and wind are not even close to being a reliable energy source. At best they can provide a very small means of helping with peak demands but the environmental cost in land use alone is tremendous. We're not talking one or two windmills, we're talking farms that stretch for miles. Everyone will want one in the back yard! The technology to store the energy on off peak hours does not exist today and it will be many years before it exists, if ever. So the bottom line is we are saying the same thing, there is no short term answer.
No one here has said you go after the oil to the exclusion of everything else. Just the opposite- you try to get nukes to be more viable econominally, you continue research on solar and wind, and you begin to build more drilling and refining capacity. I read that there is oil off Florida and California and there is more oil in the Gulf. You go after it all and take what you can get. If you don't we'll be sitting here 15 years from now having the same discussion.

I understand that, but it will take 15 years to get ANWR on line, and that same investment would be better suited to other sources that could actually provide, and substantiate, more than 5%.

Also, the high oil costs are what SPURS this nation into actually doing something. I guarantee you that if you were paying $1.50 for gas right now, there would be NO talk of solar or wind or nuclear or any other alternate source. Yet, if there had been 15 years ago, we would be in a different positio ntoday.

Regarding Florida and California and such, I owould love to hear the comments of those that sail offshore in Texas and LA on that. Those guys that run those platforms take horrendous care and thought into what type of navigational hazards they make for maritime traffic.

Go pull a chart on the known oil platforms in the gulf. Looks like someone shot the map with a shotgun. You will sit there and look at it and think: How am I ever going to get my boat through that!

- CD

[erps]

I understand that, but it will take 15 years to get ANWR on line, and that same investment would be better suited to other sources that could actually provide, and substantiate, more than 5%.

I don't know the answer to that question CD, but I would think businesses would be lined up at investing in other energy sources if they thought they could realize the same kind of profits from drilling and refining oil.

Also, the high oil costs are what SPURS this nation into actually doing something. I guarantee you that if you were paying $1.50 for gas right now, there would be NO talk of solar or wind or nuclear or any other alternate source.

but that is what has given us such cheap energy over the years, because we consumers will always flock towards the best bargain. Solar and wind have been around for years, but it was too expensive for the average consumer to want to make the switch.

[Cruisingdad]

If you genuinely have an interest in this subject, I reccomend reading the following:

http://www.pppl.gov/polImage.cfm?doc...&size_code=Doc

It is very long, but is often pointed at by advocates of both sides. I think it is probably the most impartial, comprehensive look that you can get.

Everyone will read it with a different solution. THis does not make solutions. It states the issues, both current and future, along with the implications.

I came out of that, pretty much convinced that we have to get off oil.

- CD

[erps]

I haven't read it yet CD, but I will. I don't think anyone is saying we shouldn't get off oil, just that we'll get off it when it's cheaper to go with something else (and that day is getting very near)

[Cruisingdad]

Originally Posted by erps

I haven't read it yet CD, but I will. I don't think anyone is saying we shouldn't get off oil, just that we'll get off it when it's cheaper to go with something else (and that day is getting very near)

I am not arguiing that point. I am simply saying that it will take over a decade to get put things in place that will allow us to get off of SOME oil. Start now. Invest now. We are putting too much talk on trying to find a way to get another 5% production, when we should be talking about how to get off 50% or better.

I said this before, but can you imagine what our country would be like if we did not send billions over seas for oil? If we did not depend on other coutries to drive to work? If we could tell some specific countries (whom we all know) to take their oil and stick it.

THat, my friends, would change the entire geopolitical sphere. THey know that too. That is why, in my opinion, you get some really serious legislation going about building nuke plants, ethanol, solar... I mean a realy serious Energy Policy (that we have never had) and you will suddenly see the price of oil plummet. All of a sudden, they (our "friends") really are pumping out more and providing more.

It is like crack... they don't want you off of it - they want you buying just more than you can afford.

Nah, I'll live with $5 gas. I'll live with 14 MPG. Because I think that will spur us onto a better, independent country in the future.

[camaraderie]

Here's what we need to do now.


Then build about 1000 nuke plants...while closing the coal fired.
Charge the same for oil as OPEC counries to the lessees...and use the revenue to subsidize lower income driving costs fund fundamental alternative energy research and building enough refinery capacity to meet our needs. And STOP subsidizing alternative energy. The market will deliver the BEST solution. Stop subsidizing ethanol and causing world wide food price rises and increased hunger and poverty.