Drilling for Oil in the Bakken formation

[sailaway21]

Originally Posted by Cruisingdad

I understand that, but it will take 15 years to get ANWR on line, and that same investment would be better suited to other sources that could actually provide, and substantiate, more than 5%.

Also, the high oil costs are what SPURS this nation into actually doing something. I guarantee you that if you were paying $1.50 for gas right now, there would be NO talk of solar or wind or nuclear or any other alternate source. Yet, if there had been 15 years ago, we would be in a different positio ntoday.

Regarding Florida and California and such, I owould love to hear the comments of those that sail offshore in Texas and LA on that. Those guys that run those platforms take horrendous care and thought into what type of navigational hazards they make for maritime traffic.

Go pull a chart on the known oil platforms in the gulf. Looks like someone shot the map with a shotgun. You will sit there and look at it and think: How am I ever going to get my boat through that!

- CD

Now you're losing what support you might have from me. Perhaps you'd like to explain the mechanism by which the money invested in ANWR is going to be invested in other sources. Are we going to take Chevron's money and give it to the utility companies? You're not under the impression that the US government is going to be doing the drilling in ANWR are you?

You want to proceed with coal to oil before you drill for oil? That's like keeping the shades down in the daytime and then using a lamp to read.

Cam's post was spot on the money.

Since when was 5% chopped liver? The nature of the oil business has always been a little here and a little there.

Have you already forgotten the prior posts? There is no shortage of oil. There is though a speculative bubble in the market. I'll repeat again, the entire history of the oil drilling business has been one of steadily increasing proven reserves accompanied by screams that the end is near. Cam and I were around in the seventies when those dire predictions were made. We were fortunate enough to then live through a two decade span of cheap oil. and you expect us to believe you now when everyone like you was SURE that we were running out, thirty years ago.

I'm a bit perplexed at your references to the navigable waters of the Gulf of Mexico. I plied my trade there for many a year with no problems. Of course I was only on 80,000 ton tankers and not a deep draft Catalina.

I've asked before and still await an answer from you on just how we're going to invest in alternative energy sources and guarantee a successful result. You sound like you believe we'd have one yesterday if the gummint would just invest in these things. The gummint is busy investing in cancer and AIDS and doesn't have any money for solar cells or battery technology (the latter you've ignored). And just look at all the progress the government has made on those two things

If you're not a wack-job environmentalist you're sure putting on a good impression of one. Most of them have their blinders on also. (g)

Somebody is working on your ideas. It's obviously a tough row to hoe as there've been no breakthroughs on renewable energy. Did you think that no one was investing in that area with gas at $4+?

[sailaway21]

The Jawa Report: Oil Exploration in Cuba's Gulf Waters

cuban drilling

[Cruisingdad]

Now you're losing what support you might have from me.

Please go back and show me at what point I had support from you in this debate. Of course, I have slept since then... but obviously you have too!!

Perhaps you'd like to explain the mechanism by which the money invested in ANWR is going to be invested in other sources. Are we going to take Chevron's money and give it to the utility companies? You're not under the impression that the US government is going to be doing the drilling in ANWR are you?

With the exception of Exxon, EVERY major oil company in the world has invested in alternative energy sources, with BP even saying, "We are beyond oil." They have invested HUGE sums of money in alternative energy. Why? Because they realize, like almost every other oil company, that they are in the business of ENERGY... and that is not simply oil.

Beyond petroleum | About BP | BP

Chevron, using your examply, has invested huge amounts of money in the same. And did you know, dear Sway, that Chevron (again, using your exmple) IS THE LARGEST GEOTHERMAL PRODUCER OF ENERGY IN THE WORLD???

Chevron CEO David O'Reilly on the price of oil - Nov. 28, 2007

UC Davis News & Information :: Chevron fuels $25M alternative energy endeavor

I suggest you actually research the topics you discuss.

Since when was 5% chopped liver? The nature of the oil business has always been a little here and a little there.

Chopped Liver, eh? Let me break this down to remedial math.

Average American Family:

Let's say the average American puts on 15,000 miles/year and gets 20 mpg.

That means, assuming oil stays at its alltime high of $4.00/gallon, they will pay $3,000/year for gas. That means $250/month for gas.

Now, assuming we can get 1:1 (crude:gas... impossible), that means they will save 5% on their gas bill every month. THat is a whopping $12.50/month.

$12.50 will buy you 2 (TWO) Big Mac meals/month at Mac Donalds. So you are right, it is not chopped liver. It is 2 big mac happy meals (assuming they don;t raise the prices)... or one trip to the movies (no popcorn, sorry).

Unfortunately, there is also some bad news here: If you get more than 20 mpg... you get less savings... which means you will have to eat off the dollar menu. Also, if you drive less than 15,000 miles/year, you are once again at the dollar menu or will be forced to taco bell .79 tacos.

Also, you will have to wait 15 (FIFTEEN!!!) years to get your Big Mac. Sorry. Hope you don't get hungry, but the sevrve time has a LONG waiting list.

WOW!! OH MY GOODNESS!!!! WHEN CAN WE START DRILLING!!!!!

You want to proceed with coal to oil before you drill for oil? That's like keeping the shades down in the daytime and then using a lamp to read.

Eh? Opposed to converting coal (which we have in abundance) to oil? If you're not a wack-job environmentalist you're sure putting on a good impression of one. Most of them have their blinders on also. (g) Now, where have I heard that before???

I'm a bit perplexed at your references to the navigable waters of the Gulf of Mexico. I plied my trade there for many a year with no problems. Of course I was only on 80,000 ton tankers and not a deep draft Catalina.

If you fail to understand the differences between driving a 80,000 ton tanker with a large crew to a husband/wife (or solo) sailing a small sailboat, I cannot help you. I suggest you go to the forums located at www.sailnet.com to begine to understand some of the differences.

Have you already forgotten the prior posts? There is no shortage of oil. There is though a speculative bubble in the market. I'll repeat again, the entire history of the oil drilling business has been one of steadily increasing proven reserves accompanied by screams that the end is near. Cam and I were around in the seventies when those dire predictions were made. We were fortunate enough to then live through a two decade span of cheap oil. and you expect us to believe you now when everyone like you was SURE that we were running out, thirty years ago.

Peak oil is the point in time when the maximum rate of global petroleum production is reached. The issue is not one of "running out" so much as it is not having enough to keep our economy running.

I've asked before and still await an answer from you on just how we're going to invest in alternative energy sources and guarantee a successful result. You sound like you believe we'd have one yesterday if the gummint would just invest in these things. The gummint is busy investing in cancer and AIDS and doesn't have any money for solar cells or battery technology (the latter you've ignored). And just look at all the progress the government has made on those two things

I have asked before and still await an answer from you on just how we're going to invest in oil and guarantee a successful result. You sould like you believe we'd have cheap oil and an abundant supply today if we had just drilled ANWR and got another 5% production now or pumped it dry overnight and have enough to run our contry for a little over one year. The gummit is busy inesting in Propaganda and PAC's to mislead the uninformed and just doesn't have money for solar cells or battery technology (which has improved since the 60's and 70's which you've ignored). And just look at all the progress the goverment has made by doing nothing but promoting cheap oil and having NO ENERGY POLICY.

Have you already forgotten the prior posts? There is no shortage of oil. There is though a speculative bubble in the market. I'll repeat again, the entire history of the oil drilling business has been one of steadily increasing proven reserves accompanied by screams that the end is near. Cam and I were around in the seventies when those dire predictions were made. We were fortunate enough to then live through a two decade span of cheap oil. and you expect us to believe you now when everyone like you was SURE that we were running out, thirty years ago.

Have you forgotten the prior posts (one of which you posted and did not even read first!!, as I pointed out as it substantiated my case). There is a shortage of oil in the United States - what we can produce domestically. There is also a speculative bubble in the market. I'll repeat again, the entire history of the oil drilling business has been one of steadily drilling in places outside of the US due to US policy and the fact that the reserves domestically are very small and would completely fail to provide the US with current consumption. I know you and Cam we around in the seventies when dire predictions were made - as was I. We were all fortunate enough to live through a two decade span of cheap oil, and I expect you to believe the USCG, The countless articles presented, the oil companies, the Pro Drill ANWR sites, and even our President (Mr. Big Oil himself) when he urges us to get off of foreign oil and work toward alternative energy sources.

CNN.com - Bush has plan to end oil 'addiction' - Feb 1, 2006

Somebody is working on your ideas. It's obviously a tough row to hoe as there've been no breakthroughs on renewable energy. Did you think that no one was investing in that area with gas at $4+?

I have no doubt the investment in that area will be exponential now with $4/gallon gas. We have to have energy. It has to come from somewhere. With $4/gallon gas, it is definitely worth the investment now. For the US, investing in domestic oil is a total waste. We do not have enough to provide for our country even a short period of time, and we are 15 years from even realizing any results from it. Focus on the energy sources that we have locally and can be sustained for longer than a decade or two.

- CD

[sailaway21]

CD,
You're obviously hysterical. But then I'm used to that. (g)

I think I've stated well enough previously that we do not have to supply all the oil we use to alleviate the situation, but we do-now-have to supply some. It now makes sense, and dollars, to drill for American oil. Why are we not?

Your claims about how long it will take to get that oil to market fall on deaf ears. You haven't a single alternative energy source that is going to do diddly-squat to reduce the demand for oil within the same time frame. You're sounding like one of those conspiracy theorists, the kind who cite GM of buying up and shelving the trolley car industry!

Since you feel so strongly about the efficacy of alternative energy I would encourage you to invest in it. Heavily. I'll meet you in the market crash thread in ten years and we can discuss how things worked out.

There was a congressman on the radio tonight, Glen Beck's program, talking about oil from shale. He said that there may even be as much as a trillion barrels available there. Problem is, and he cites a company that could be up and running in under a year, it takes seven years to get a permit which something like 23 federal agencies have to approve before they can go ahead. Perhaps you'd like to concentrate your efforts there as a hedge against any set-backs on the alternative front.

I'm not against oil from coal it just seems kind of stupid to advocate not drilling, as you do, and instead start bulldozing down more mountains for more expensive energy than we can pump. Perhaps we should do both since the latter is now closer to being price competitive.

I did read the entire link I posted-about a day before you showed up. Just because it was in a link I provided doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with everything in it. It was cited due to it's referencing the amazing discrepancies on how much oil could reasonably be expected to be withdrawn from the Bakken formation.

If you cannot keep your deep draft Catalina clear of underwater oil wellheads I'm not sure there is much I can do. Those that are a hazard to navigation are charted and I believe the minimum depth they can be capped at is fifty feet below the surface, but I'm not sure on that. I tended to stay within those shipping lanes that are so nicely printed on the charts. Smaller ships will often not do so operating on local knowledge. The Gulf is full of shrimp boats, fishing boats, oil supply boats and every other type of waterborne craft. Are you informing me that they can navigate but that certain models of Catalina are unable to do so within the Gulf of Mexico?

How old were you in the 1970's, ten maybe at the end of the decade. You'll forgive me if I don't trust your recollection of matters relating to the world oil market from that decade. Are you related to Paul Ehrlich? (google that one along with Julian Simon, you might then think twice about your investments)

I watch the same BP commercials you do, I just don't believe everything I see on TV. If we're "beyond oil" you might just take a look at the balance sheet for BP to see just how far beyond we really are. My suspicion is that you'll find that alternative energy is a net money loser for BP at this point in time; the same way that the Prius doesn't bring home a dime to Toyota.

And, btw, we built the Alaska pipeline for what was predicted to be a decade's worth of oil. Apparently you have knowledge that the geologists do not; they only speculate on what they think might be down there and how much they can get out. I'll bet they'd like to borrow your underground goggles. In fact so would I!

I offered my support to you in that I am in favor of pursuing all energy sources. I'm not in favor of the government pursuing them though. I'm in favor of the government getting out of the way so that private business can do what it does best. You on the other hand are doing everything but say that you're in favor of massive government involvement. We had that too, back in the seventies and it didn't do a thing for energy because the price went down in the eighties. I remember being taxed for it though, at 50% of gross income. Probably another thing you don't really remember from the seventies unless President Carter had a secret Little League tax I was unaware of.

Answer one single question. What energy sources do we have locally that can be sustained for a decade or two (your words) that are anywhere near capable of replacing even 25% of the btu's we get from oil? I'll wait.

[Freesail99]

There is oil shale even in New Jersey. I had it on my farm in north western NJ.

[Cruisingdad]

Originally Posted by sailaway21

CD,
You're obviously hysterical. But then I'm used to that. (g)

I think I've stated well enough previously that we do not have to supply all the oil we use to alleviate the situation, but we do-now-have to supply some. It now makes sense, and dollars, to drill for American oil. Why are we not?

Your claims about how long it will take to get that oil to market fall on deaf ears. You haven't a single alternative energy source that is going to do diddly-squat to reduce the demand for oil within the same time frame. You're sounding like one of those conspiracy theorists, the kind who cite GM of buying up and shelving the trolley car industry!

Since you feel so strongly about the efficacy of alternative energy I would encourage you to invest in it. Heavily. I'll meet you in the market crash thread in ten years and we can discuss how things worked out.

There was a congressman on the radio tonight, Glen Beck's program, talking about oil from shale. He said that there may even be as much as a trillion barrels available there. Problem is, and he cites a company that could be up and running in under a year, it takes seven years to get a permit which something like 23 federal agencies have to approve before they can go ahead. Perhaps you'd like to concentrate your efforts there as a hedge against any set-backs on the alternative front.

I'm not against oil from coal it just seems kind of stupid to advocate not drilling, as you do, and instead start bulldozing down more mountains for more expensive energy than we can pump. Perhaps we should do both since the latter is now closer to being price competitive.

I did read the entire link I posted-about a day before you showed up. Just because it was in a link I provided doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with everything in it. It was cited due to it's referencing the amazing discrepancies on how much oil could reasonably be expected to be withdrawn from the Bakken formation.

If you cannot keep your deep draft Catalina clear of underwater oil wellheads I'm not sure there is much I can do. Those that are a hazard to navigation are charted and I believe the minimum depth they can be capped at is fifty feet below the surface, but I'm not sure on that. I tended to stay within those shipping lanes that are so nicely printed on the charts. Smaller ships will often not do so operating on local knowledge. The Gulf is full of shrimp boats, fishing boats, oil supply boats and every other type of waterborne craft. Are you informing me that they can navigate but that certain models of Catalina are unable to do so within the Gulf of Mexico?

How old were you in the 1970's, ten maybe at the end of the decade. You'll forgive me if I don't trust your recollection of matters relating to the world oil market from that decade. Are you related to Paul Ehrlich? (google that one along with Julian Simon, you might then think twice about your investments)

I watch the same BP commercials you do, I just don't believe everything I see on TV. If we're "beyond oil" you might just take a look at the balance sheet for BP to see just how far beyond we really are. My suspicion is that you'll find that alternative energy is a net money loser for BP at this point in time; the same way that the Prius doesn't bring home a dime to Toyota.

And, btw, we built the Alaska pipeline for what was predicted to be a decade's worth of oil. Apparently you have knowledge that the geologists do not; they only speculate on what they think might be down there and how much they can get out. I'll bet they'd like to borrow your underground goggles. In fact so would I!

I offered my support to you in that I am in favor of pursuing all energy sources. I'm not in favor of the government pursuing them though. I'm in favor of the government getting out of the way so that private business can do what it does best. You on the other hand are doing everything but say that you're in favor of massive government involvement. We had that too, back in the seventies and it didn't do a thing for energy because the price went down in the eighties. I remember being taxed for it though, at 50% of gross income. Probably another thing you don't really remember from the seventies unless President Carter had a secret Little League tax I was unaware of.

Answer one single question. What energy sources do we have locally that can be sustained for a decade or two (your words) that are anywhere near capable of replacing even 25% of the btu's we get from oil? I'll wait.

Sway,

Meeting me in the middle, are you? Did a debate on the internet actually help change a person's mind!!!!! (smile).

It has been a good civil debate. To answer your last question, I would have to do more research which I cannot right now to answer it truthfully and with good information. My first guess is nuclear, but geothermal, solar, and wind would be worth considering too. Still, a good answer requires a LOT of research - and I have invested too much time in this already at this point.

At any rate, I think we agree in principle not to avoid any energy possibilities. That would include oil. My argument has never been one of "Don't drill because it is bad for the environment (or) don't drill oil because solar is the way..." my argument is that drilling for oil here is like trying to sopt a shaft seal leak on the Titanic after she hit the ice berg. We simply do NOT have enough to sustain even a small percentage of what we need. Go to something else.

We HAVE to, HAVE TO, find another source. If we had concentrated on that years ago, with a well thought out Energy Plan, I truly believe we would be in a different situation. What will happen (mark my words) is that the price of oil (which is likely a bubble) will drop and we will go back to cheap oil and forget about the realities that face us... we just don't have enough here.

Gotta catch up on other threads (and actually do some work today).

- CD

[camaraderie]

CD... Put it this way. Presently we are paying 500 billion a year mostly to enemies for our oil. China is preparing to drill off Cuba so they can sell us our oil that we won't drill for ourselves. We have ALL the oil we need for the rest of our lifetimes right here in reserves and coal oil if we are allowed to use it. AND NO OTHER alternative exists that is anywhere CLOSE to being as economical.
WE NEED to find alternatives to oil....and the market will over time, especially as oil prices continue to rise over the next couple of decades due to world demand. In the meantime...it is essential to stop funding our enemies, reducing the value of the dollar due to balance of payments and letting fringe environmentalists and NIMBY's cripple our economic strength and tie up PUBLIC Resources while the average American goes deeper into debt.

[Cruisingdad]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

CD... Put it this way. Presently we are paying 500 billion a year mostly to enemies for our oil. China is preparing to drill off Cuba so they can sell us our oil that we won't drill for ourselves. We have ALL the oil we need for the rest of our lifetimes right here in reserves and coal oil if we are allowed to use it. AND NO OTHER alternative exists that is anywhere CLOSE to being as economical.
WE NEED to find alternatives to oil....and the market will over time, especially as oil prices continue to rise over the next couple of decades due to world demand. In the meantime...it is essential to stop funding our enemies, reducing the value of the dollar due to balance of payments and letting fringe environmentalists and NIMBY's cripple our economic strength and tie up PUBLIC Resources while the average American goes deeper into debt.

With the exception of 500 billion for oil and china drilling, please show me where you have gotten the facts for the rest of that. I am not being a smarty, I am being serious. All of my research, even including the pro-drill sites and oil company sites, say something COMPLETELY different from you. Obviously I am missing something.

And has it occured to you that maybe the market is forcing alternatives right now?

I read yesterday about Saudia Arabia immediately turning on every spigot. They are about the only ones that can do it. Remember how the market reacted yesterday? Oil went UP (though it finally ended down some). Why? Because of the grim reality: they can add 1-2 million barrells/day. That will add .2% to the current demand - that is two-tenths of a percent.

Ouch.

Drilling now will take 15 years.

We run through 7.6 billion barrells/year in the US. We have somewhere around 20 billion barrels recoverable (including ANWR and Balken and Texas). Guess you are not planning on living very long?? And as I have said before, it takes 15 years to get it. You run out of it 15 years after that (assuming you can even get 5% out of it/year).

ANWR only has enough to supply a bit over one year of US current use. That is assuming you could drain it dry overnight (impossible).

Balkken is less than ANWR.

Texas is less than Balkken.

I am serious. I don't care if it is the Exxon web page or Dick Cheney's personal blog... please show me where you are getting these facts from that contradict everything I have researched?

- CD

[retclt]

Texas is the Saudi Arabia of coal and natural gas. We have more than anyone else in the world. The same folks who won't let us drill, dig, build nuke plants or refinery's are the same folks fighting against new coal power plants here. I was watching an Oil & Energy hearing on Cspan last week. It was alternating Democrats and Republicans speaking. The Democrats all used the same party line. “We can’t drill our way out of this problem”. Dem after Dem used it. One energy spokesman looked right at the Dems and said “you live by the banana theory, build absolutely nothing now”.

We have it . . . lets go get it! I don’t care to buy “Our” oil from the Cubans and Chinese. I’m all for alternative energy sources. We SHOULD invest in it . . . just not this way . . . while watching our economy fall off a cliff. The ONLY thing I give Jimmy Carter credit for is the tax incentives’ for solar and other alternative energy R&D he put in place in the 70’s. Reagan let them expire . . . the ONLY thing about Reagan I disapproved of. Why can’t we do both? Drill AND research new energy sources.

We have as much or more oil than anyone else in the world. It’s just off limits so it doesn’t get counted!! It’s like money in the bank that I’m not allowed to touch.

. . . . . . . on a little off note . . . . . . . CNN is the only choice we have at the cafeteria upstairs. They ran a story this morning on how Europe is fawning over Obama. I need to puke now.

[retclt]

I forgot to mention, We also have what is the largest, newest and biggest wind farm in the world near Abilene. Wind powered generators stretch for 30 miles. The libs are now trying to keep us from hooking it to the grid and turning it on . . . the wind generators THEY wanted in the first place. Worried about the birds now. What the #%!! are we supposed to do? Move back into caves or kill ourselves for mother earth?