So he did have the makings of WMD's

[tdw]

Pack it in Sway. Time to get real.

I'm not going through this BS again. Did it before. Not a pack of lies ? Go have a chat with Colin Powell. That wasn't effing intelligence it was wishful bloody thinking.

Then again the US didn't really lose the American, whoops, Vietnam war did it ? Oh no, not at all and the Gulf of Tonkin 'incident' really was those nasty commies trying to get at good ol' Uncle Sam.

Now maybe just maybe Iraq did have to happen but you just remember that it was people like me who said wait a minute, what's the hurry ? But oh no, Shrub and his buddy boys had to get in there oh so fast. Just in case Hussein slipped away while we were not looking.

Then, having rushed right in where even fools fear to tread we had to put up with the vomit inducing sight of Bush and his "Mission Accomplished". What a load of hooey that was.

As for murderous brutal thugs, you know it and I know it. Oh you may try and hide behind the St Jean of Kirkpatrick Doctrine but there are those of out here who consider it self serving hogwash and nothing but.

Alex was right. This is a BS thread. I said it in the Rep v Dem thread and now I say it here as well. I'm gone. You people cannot consider anything except your own BS concepts. You'll pillory the 'left' simply to advance your own agenda. You'll claim you are not prisoners of the Republican party in order to avoid the rank odour that rises therefrom but consider any topic other than your own fixations ? Never.

As for "after Israel'. Bah. Humbug. Once again, a degree of even handedness please.

Have at it. You are simply full of it and it should be flushed down the sewer.

As for your diatribe Rockter....I grew up in a world were the USA was lionised as the friend of freedom. A USA who went to war (albeit somewhat tardily) to support GB and her allies against the Germans in WWI and WWII and received the world's thanks for doing so. A USA who fought the communists in Korea when the north invaded the south and a USA who had the free worlds support in the supposed war against the agression of the communists in Vietnam.

That support weakened when it became known that the same USA went into the Vietnam/American war on false pretenses and fed us a crock of shite until the helicopters took the last few off the roof of the embassy in Saigon. That support weakened as we saw the US support for the fascists in Spain, for the likes of Marcos in the Phillipines and for various dodgey regimes throughout the world simply because it served the US's interests at the time.

Oh and by the way Australians have fought and died alongside Americans in almost every major conflict you have been involved in since WWI including Afghanistan and Iraq.

Thankfullly the polls seem to indicate that most Americans agree with the anti war stance so I'll just call this quits.

I don't need this aggravation, not a bit of it. In future, unless it's to do with sailing I don't want to know.

Goodnight and Good Bloody Luck to the lot of you.

[chucklesR]

There is a tremendous moral, ethical and legal difference between a lie and being wrong. Those of you who are perpetually calling the Bush administration a pack of liars need to look in the mirror and ask yourself if (when ) you have been wrong, and are you then a liar?

Being wrong based on being mis-informed by the best information you have available is not being dishonest, or lying, it's just plain being wrong.

If a police officer (the UN ) pulls you over and asks you if you have any weapons - and you say no (Iraq) - then says fine I'm going to search you - and you resist that search (Iraq) - you get subdued (clubbed silly, tear gassed, tasered and handcuffed) then strip searched.

That's how the world works, that's how your neighborhood works. The difference is only in scale. Get over it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again (because I like to)

Those of you that want to run around thinking the world is not a hard, nasty dangerous place full of people that will do harm in hard, nasty ways should be damn grateful to those of us that see the need to go in harms way and do hard, nasty stuff unto them before they do it unto you in your shopping malls.

[ckgreenman]

Originally Posted by Giulietta

Not from me you will not get a show....I don't play with guys that write one thing, then go back and modify it later as the wind flows...got hammered once because of a guy like that, never again...

The first time someone writes something then after being replied goes back and modifies the post...that's where I stop playing the game....

I write..it stays...it's called honour...

Besides...ahh never mind...

Lol, I hadn't noticed he had gon back and changed it. I don't even recall whether he even said what HE has done for our country other than rant.

[jrd22]

Chuckles- well said, and you can say it as many times as you like. I always like hearing the truth.

John

[sck5]

so either they are liars or they are incompetent - many of us have trouble with the simply being wrong idea because the truth seemed so obvious that it was hard to imagine not seeing it. If we grant that they truly believed their own propaganda (which would be consistent with what Chuck said above) then they were so ill equipped to do their jobs that they were guilty of incompetence rather being liars. And please, dont tell me "everyone thought" that Saddam had WMD's. Everyone didnt for the simple reason that inspectors looked everywhere for them and didnt find them. well, either way they will be out of there very soon.

[Giulietta]

This is what I see...(and believe me I know what I am talking about because I come here so often, I can see thing..I have gathered many friends in the US and we talk..yes we talk..and often I hear them..)

sometimes Americans don't seem to understand that if you are against the Government (and the guy there as head honcho..uhhuu...), that you don't hate the Country...you can hate the Bush guy but still like the people in the country and the country..with you guys its either too dry or to wet...

same for the war, just because someone is AGAINST THE WAR, that doesn't mean he is on the enemy side.....

I am against the war, yes I am, specially after they diverted their attention from Afghanistan to chase ghosts in Iraq, but as a citizen of a country that is a NATO allied to the US, I support the war and so does my country....now that is going to be confusing for my American friends...

Why did they stop lieing??? If they didn't find them...planted a few...and say..SEE???? WE TOLD YOU!!!!!

Put some photos on the internet of a camel carrying a missil...or an Iraqui police ma with a nuke up his but....

WHY DID THEY STOP LIEING ALL OF A SUDDEN???

So please stop accusing Europe of hating Americans..they don't..they hate Bush...that's all..and sometimes, the "I hate Bush" thing gets transformed by exageration into "I hate Americans"....

And just fopr the record, last week, in HARD CORE WYOMING, HARD CORE REGISTRED REPUBLICANS, told me they were voting Democrat this year...

I just wonder why....guys...I just wonder why...

[CGMojo]

I'm with Chuckles. The US was just doing what the UN said should be done but the UN didn't have the stones to do. We were fully justified in going back into Iraq the first time Saddam locked a radar onto a US or UK fighter pilot who was enforcing a UN no-fly zone in order to keep Saddam from killing his own people.
Iraq had WMD---gas---and he used it on his own people. He was trying very hard to acquire nukes and had very dubious associations, such as AQ training camps on his turf. Some deny the training camps, but they were there. The UK's "Economist" wrote them off as being in areas of Iraq that were not under Saddam's control, but if you think there was one square inch of Iraq that was not under Saddam's control you are nuts.
The world will be better off with a little democracy in the Middle East.

[ckgreenman]

Originally Posted by Giulietta

sometimes Americans don't seem to understand that if you are against the Government (and the guy there as head honcho..uhhuu...), that you don't hate the Country...you can hate the Bush guy but still like the people in the country and the country..with you guys its either too dry or to wet...

Very true. Personally there isn't much I like about our current government. I think it's too fat and too corrupt to be all that effective. However, I love my country and have put my life on the line for it. And I would do it again.

Originally Posted by Giulietta

I am against the war, yes I am, specially after they diverted their attention from Afghanistan to chase ghosts in Iraq, but as a citizen of a country that is a NATO allied to the US, I support the war and so does my country....now that is going to be confusing for my American friends...

Not all of us are confused. I myself, have mixed feelings about the war. First off I think we went over there for the wrong reasons. I think we should have stuck to the task at hand which was catching Bin Ladin in Afghanistan and watching him swing from a rope. I also think it's a travesty that our troops in Afghanistan seem to have been forgotten because iraq, elections, and the economy generate more media ratings then hearing about our troops getting killed on foreign soil. HOWEVER, since we ARE over we need to GET THE JOB DONE AND GET IT DONE RIGHT!. We ousted their government so it is our responsibility to fix it.

Originally Posted by Giulietta

Put some photos on the internet of a camel carrying a missil...or an Iraqui police ma with a nuke up his but....

Ok

Originally Posted by Giulietta

And just fopr the record, last week, in HARD CORE WYOMING, HARD CORE REGISTRED REPUBLICANS, told me they were voting Democrat this year...

I just wonder why....guys...I just wonder why...

I'm a republican too but I say screw both parties. I'm voting independent.

[hellosailor]

"The world will be better off with a little democracy in the Middle East."
I would laugh if that wasn't painfully sad to hear.

You can't INSTALL a democracy. It won't work and won't last when it just arrives "Deus ex machina" from the sky.

What the Iraqis, excuse me, Persians, no, make that "varying tribes" had, was a TRIBAL government and that can work just as well as a Democracy, if not better. Instead of voting for the better liar, you vote for Uncle Abdul, because he may be a liar but he's still your Uncle and he'll favor you over the second-cousin from the next clan down the road.

IT WORKS.

The problem is, we removed a dictator that the west had created (Britain drew all those lines on the map, just like they did in Pakistan and India with equally poor results) and left a void, where tribes were scattered on each others' lands and had long-standing antipathies and weapons.

Democracy? Forget about it! It only works when the citizens have EARNED it and understand how to KEEP IT RUNNING. Something that is failing, even here and now, in the West.

Failing slowly, but failing, because we've given the vote to every idiot who can make an "X" without understanding what or why they are in a voting booth for. Uncle Adbul, he can solve that problem!

[ckgreenman]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Failing slowly, but failing, because we've given the vote to every idiot who can make an "X" without understanding what or why they are in a voting booth for. Uncle Adbul, he can solve that problem!

Sometimes they can't even make an "X" right.