Uninformed, Oversimplified Cape Fear 38' Opinion

[knothead]

I am going to say this here in off topic where I can't get in too much trouble.

I am sure that Runner must have said something in his last post that was really out of line to have been banned but nevertheless I think he had some good points.

I respect Jeff's expertise as well as many others who admittedly have a much better grasp of the science of boat building than I do.
But, you can show me numbers all day long that show how the Cape Fear 38' keel was designed and built correctly and with an adequate safety margin and I won't ever believe it.
The numbers may work out just fine on paper in some office somewhere, but in the real world, stuff happens.
The damn thing wasn't right. Wasn't strong enough. And I can tell just by looking at it.
The experts are going to argue about it until hell freezes over and it won't change the fact that it was simply poorly designed and under built.
In my admittedly less than educated or humble opinion.

As far as the repair goes. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that after a boat like that goes aground and is pulled off by a couple of large powerboats and shows that kind of damage upon being hauled out, it's going to take a lot more than 1800.00 dollars to perform the kind of repairs that it needs.
There is no way that they could have pulled the keel and inspected it properly for that kind of money. And again, you don't have to be a brain surgeon to know that the keel should have been pulled.
From what I understand, the boat also got a bottom job for that $1800.00 too.

These kind of investigations really piss me off. They use a bunch of numbers and thousands of pages to try to make people deny what they can see with their own eyes and know with their own common sense.

Fire away. I don't give a crap.

[bubb2]

Originally Posted by knothead

Fire away. I don't give a crap.

OK here I go!!

I agree with you.

[JohnRPollard]

Steve,

You may be 100% correct. Or not.

There are at least two simultaneous investigations running, possibly more (USCG, Texas A&M, law firm?) Given the competing investigations, I do not think problems will get glossed over or white washed.

In fact, I'm hopeful that recommendations will be made to reduce the chance of this from ever happening again. From which you can infer where I stand on the issue.

[knothead]

Originally Posted by JohnRPollard

Steve,

You may be 100% correct. Or not.

There are at least two simultaneous investigations running, possibly more (USCG, Texas A&M, law firm?) Given the competing investigations, I do not think problems will get glossed over or white washed.

In fact, I'm hopeful that recommendations will be made to reduce the chance of this from ever happening again. From which you can infer where I stand on the issue.

John, I don't really care about being right of wrong. My point is that I am just sick of games and misdirection.
The keel fell off the damn boat.
No debate there. Right?
OK, why.
Did it fall off because it went aground? Probably. But that's not really the point either.
Runner made the point that the keel worked back and forth enough to finally break off. If that didn't happen then what are we left with.
Some freaking sea monster just reached up and bit the darn thing off?
Of course it was loose enough to move. And of course it will eventually break if allowed to continue moving.
So then where are we. Is it moving because it went aground? Maybe.
Is it moving because it was dragged off the bottom by a couple of powerboats? Maybe.
Was it moving because it wasn't strong enough to handle going aground and being drug off. Probably. But that can be said for a lot of boats.
Was it repaired after going aground and being drug off. Supposedly.
Was the repair done correctly thoroughly for 1800.00 dollars? Unlikely, but beside the point.
If the boat were brand new and was 500 miles from shore. It's hits a container or something at full speed.
Do you think it would damage the keel? Do you think the boat could make it to port before the thing broke off just from the wave action? I don't. I don't like boats that have these huge weights hanging at the end of a 5 or 6 foot lever anyway. But there is no way that anyone in the world can convince me that the way that keel was attached to that boat was adequate. The backing plates were only as wide as the footprint of the keel itself. and that was only what, 5 or 6 inches. It was bolted to less that and inch of fiberglass for God's sake. Why wasn't the keel bolted through floors or something that would distribute the load over a large section of the hull?

The boat should have been equipped with positive flotation or have come with a warning label that said "Do not take boat farther off shore than you can swim".

[Rockter]

Yes, get a long keel, cast into the fibreglass.

Avoid those long thin things sticking down. I never did trust them anyway.

I think that the strength of the long keel is under-estimated often.

[Giulietta]

Spade keels and others alike are installed in boats for one purpose, and that, in boats that serve mainly one purpose...and that is race, sail fast and point...it's a compromise accepted by those that own them

No one in their right mind will put one of these in ocean going cruisers...they are installed by people knowing and fully aware of their limits and other factors...

HOWEVER, if properly done, unlike "the advocates of catastrophe, and other sudden neo keel experts say (yep..for each subject there's allways an expert that shows up)", as I said...if properly done, they can be quite safe and used with peace of mind...

As Jeff says.."here is something I wrote for another venue"..

This shows how a properly designed and engineered keel should be installed in a race hull...

By the way..as you can see I talk of live real experience...not Jack said that Joe said that he saw Pete do.....this to say I have expereince with both types..unlike well...I stop here

The keel of my boat, and how's attached..

The boat has a structure bonded to the hull in the form of an "H" with many arms..that runs from the forward bulkhead to the area of the engine more or less.

Inside one of them, the keel box, there is an inverted box, that is solid and fits inside the space created by the structure. This box has a cut with the shape of the keel's profile.
see bellow




Then, the keel enters the hull from bellow and passes thru the box. Once inside 2 3 or 4 inch bars cross the keel and attach it to the structure. These studs pass thru the keels internal beams, that are one piece.



Then, on top, 3 bolts very thick ones, tighten the keel verically, with a lid in steel that closes the box and prevents water and any movement.

This system was chosen because the keel is very thin, long and narrow, so attching it to the hull was not a good solution.

This system is very solid against groundings and allows the keel to flex without stressing the hull, since the loads are applied to the beams.

The photos bellow show the keel that is fully encapsulated and water tight.

In the photo bellow you may see a thin water line a foot ahnd hal down from the top of the keel blade, that is how much of the keel is inside the boat in the structure grid that is there.







The torpedo is shaped with 2 fibergalss halves, that enclose the lead. A door allows adding and removing lead, that is mixed with wax in the top, so you can scoop the lead out with some heat.





Shark for looks only and to scare the dolphins...









EDIT:

Forgot to say my hull is not cored a strip of about 1 foot, all along the boat's axis

[Valiente]

Alex, in a way, your keel is like a massive centerboard. I suppose in the worst case it could snap off without allowing water to come in, although the boat would get very, very tender!

How is that steel plate gasketed to the keel box? I assume that the procedure for mounting the keel is to first "lower the boat" over the keel held vertically, then to insert the horizontal pins, then to put on the steel covering plate, which is probably not meant to bear very much load.

[knothead]

Thank you for helping me make my point Alex.

If the Cape Fear had been built the way your boat was, we wouldn't be talking about this. And it doesn't take a 5000 page report to tell us that.

[Giulietta]

Originally Posted by Valiente

Alex, in a way, your keel is like a massive centerboard. I suppose in the worst case it could snap off without allowing water to come in, although the boat would get very, very tender!

DINGHY????????? CENTERBOARD???????????

DINGHY????

OK...you CAN OFFEND ME..for various reasons...

first of all you don't talk with a superior tone, altough you're a Commonwealth citizen....unlike..well never mind....
second you don't claim to be an expert on anything we talk here
third, I know you personally, and you really stink...
fourth, I know what and how you sail
fifth I"ve met your wife...and you deserve some slack!!

Joking aside, Mark..

Originally Posted by Valiente

How is that steel plate gasketed to the keel box? I assume that the procedure for mounting the keel is to first "lower the boat" over the keel held vertically, then to insert the horizontal pins, then to put on the steel covering plate, which is probably not meant to bear very much load.

Nope...

The keel is brought in and laid on a small platform on top of an hydraulic jack, inside the cradle...the boat is set on its cradle at a higher position.. than usual (normally I leave 2 inches of clearance to the ground).

The the keel raises to meet the boat..simple...easier to move the keel than to move the boat...even a Portugee like me figures that out...

The lid has a rubber gasket and closes all around the box, the bolts keep it from stressing the studs vertically..as they are there only to support it laterally...and to transfer traction and torsion loads onto the dtructure...basically the bolts keep it in place,,the studs from moving...

Inside there is a structure that gets crossed by the studs and transfers load from the lead to the keel support.

Pretty simple design..Portuguese made....

[chucklesR]

Alex
I KNEW IT WAS A DINGHY all along. Sails like a dinghy, has the draft of dinghy (except the centerboard) planes like a dinghy. Like we say in the US, quacks like a duck, craps like a duck, it's a duck.

That's a heck of a duck tho'. I'd trade you even up if you ever come to your senses and go catamaran.

back to the OP.

I'm absolutely sure I don't have a clue, and once I hear the numbers and chemistry and engineering facts I still won't have a clue -and yep, I hate 1000 page reports too.