Getting out of Afghanistan

[Idiens]

Bubb2 - Ah! Now it's the cold war I have to be grateful for.

Yes, Rockter, I was there too, did my tiny bit, paid my taxes too.

Not that either of you would thank your allies, since obviously their contribution was too small.

However, should I be thanking you both personally your for your contribution to WWII? - As that was the issue.

But I have to be specifically grateful to you personally Cam, as others lost on our behalf.

[camaraderie]

As you know well...I said nothing about specifically grateful to me or any individual. You THANKED Britain for holding out. Thank America for bailing you out. But no...you could never be grateful to America...we are not worthy.

[sailingdog]

Unfortunately, much of the world looks to the USA to bail them out, whether it is militarily or financially, and we have done both many times, in many places... and most of them seem to forget what assistance we've rendered over the past 100 years...

As an example, one reason the Japanese steel industry is kicking the crap out of the US steel industry is that we basically rebuilt their entire infrastructure following WWII. Their steel industry is based on what we built there in the 1950s... while our domestic steel industry is still stuck with what we built there in the 1930s... Most of the Japanese auto industry was involved in the Japanese war efforts—Mitsubishi made the Zero fighter/bomber... etc.. yet we didn't destroy those companies, which would have been well within our rights after Pearl Harbor.

Also, consider that many of the countries that we compete with economically, spend very little on national defense and have little or no standing military, because WE PROTECT THEM. Yet, do they contribute a single penny towards our protection of them... NO.

So trash talk about the US all you want... but just remember... when push has come to shove, no other country in the world has done more for the world than us. That's one reason why, even when we have political leaders that are loathed world wide, the American people are generally not. Our country isn't perfect, but it does a hell of a lot better than most others do.

[sailaway21]

Originally Posted by Idiens

And Cam, I certainly thank the Americans who won the war in Europe.

But what did their children, born after the war, contribute? Why do the glories of the fathers pass to their children, allowing them to claim superiority above all criticism?

When a veteran of that war makes your claims, I bow to him. When his children, born after that war, make the same claims, it smacks of arrogance to me.

You've gone a bit too far with this one, Idiens.

Apparently you're willing to admit that the US spent half of the twentieth century bailing Yurrup's ass out but, since then, we've done damn little. The kindest interpretation I can put on your remarks is that our soldiers, in general, were not dying in Yurrup's defense.

You say this while you've lived your entire life under the protection of the American nuclear umbrella. You say this while you sleep secure in the knowledge that the NATO treaty says that an attack on a NATO member is synonymous with an attack on all NATO members and that the US is forsworn to come to your defense. You've got a lot of G.D. balls to spout such bull tookey.

Do you have the least idea of what it took to create the M1A1 Main Battle Tank? Just a refresher; it's the only tank in the world that can stand up to or destroy the Soviet T-72 tank. And the only place it was truly developed for was the fertile tank plains of northern Europe. Last I checked, that'd include Belgium. The ceramic armor alone was a billion dollar project to develop. I have no idea what it took to make a gas turbine that would fit into a 70 ton tank and propel it at 70 mph but, I don't think it was cheap. And that's just one weapons system! By the way, we could have gotten by otherwise with our Sherman tanks for most of our obligations around the rest of the world. Maybe you could name one weapons system, or weapon, that Belgium has developed recently. What strategic forces or weapons does Belgium possess?

Yurrup likes to disdain us for our guns, our non-socialized medicine, our long work hours, our lack of vacation time, our expensive universities that the government won't pay for, and our relative uncouthness. And that's just fine. But while Yurrup has been busy socializing her economies and coddling her citizens cradle to grave the United States citizen has been paying, day in and day out, so you fear for naught.

We maintain a military approximately one third the size of the entire population of Belgium and it should be larger yet given our commitments. I can see a way clear to reduce those commitments by quite a significant amount. I'd say we should renounce the NATO treaty but then I think of the Poles and the rest of eastern Europe who, along with the Brits, are damn glad we never weakened in our resolve.

It's interesting, and beyond the scope of this thread, how the English-speaking peoples of the world seem to be largely responsible for it not being one vast despotic dictatorship. One can only wonder why that calm self-sacrificing steely reserve never managed to cross the Channel while it flowed freely into such far flung places as North America and the Antipodes.

You ought to be embarrassed.

[PBzeer]

Looks like the One is trying to prove me right. Hillary at State (now that she doesn't have to prove she's tough enough to be Commander in Chief, and check out where Slick get's his big bucks from), Holder at Justice (instrumental in getting two convicted Weather Underground terrorists released, as well as the 16 FALN terrorists), now all we need is Murtha at Defense, and July 4th looks like a good target date for getting out of the Mid-East.

[Rockter]

Then what, I wonder?
Presumably terrorism is just going to go away?
Just like piracy will too, I suppose, if we are nice to them.

[bubb2]

Originally Posted by Idiens

Bubb2 - Ah! Now it's the cold war I have to be grateful for.

If you want to thank someone for the cold war you can thank Joseph Stalin. We, The US, just responded to it and drew a line in the sand at the borders of West Germany.

[PBzeer]

That pretty much seems to be the idea Rock.

[Rockter]

I have little understood from where this Anti-American sentiment originates.

It is to be expected from the far left... you hear it, loudly, all the time.... driven by ideology. Some on the far left would not care if Joseph Stalin came parading down Piccadilly. They would just make sure they weren't there when he did.

Centre left do it too, though quieter. They talk "counter-balance", and they dream of "European Empire", never stopping to look at how divided and different and un-united it really is.

The future of the UK is not served by such sentiment. It is just fanciful dreaming, but it is lubricated by Anti-American sentiment, often venomous. It is rooted in the present, because reflection on the past, recent past, shows that they should be a little more appreciative.

Such ingratitude is not universal though.
Remember the "arsenal of democracy" speech by FDR? This nation was under terrible threat, and we nearly sank, but didn't. Those were dark days.

[bubb2]

Can you hear it. Listen close. The rallying cry heard in the streets of Brussels. Boys, we got trouble. Trouble off the coast of Somalia. Boys there be pirates there. Grab your guns and head to the docks. The world needs a problem taken care of and we are going to do it. WE are a seafairing people and we will show those SOB pirates a thing or two. The world counting on us. Come on boys lets get to it.

I will give you 2 to 1 the US navy gets there before you untie your dock lines.