An Open and Frank Discussion, Moderation, etc

[Cruisingdad]

I will likely regret this thread.

I will tell you that I am 99.9999% sure I will delete it once I feel it has been discussed thoroughly. I also reserve the right to ban anyone here, or remove anyone from this thread (even senior members), should they REALLY become over the top. I will try to give them an open warning first or ask them to leave the thread. I also reserve the right to remove this thread, for any reason, should I so desire. I am sorry, All. I have to state that as I have a small concern that there may be those who would use this beynod its intent.

The intention of this thread is that members can come here and have an open and frank discussion about their concerns with moderation, me personally, or how I moderate. I want to try and get these frustrations out in the open. Keep John and Jeff out of it. Keep Cam out of it too... he is gone. I will try to include/allow other discussions of relevance as they might fit in. I will make every effort to take your criticism in stride. If you need to get personal, get personal. I cannot stop the language filter, so deal with it.

In return, I will answer you openly and truthfully - as much as I can. I will listen to your concers and frustrations. Take them out of AFOC and the Rep thread, and put them here. Also, act like grown-ups and leave your frustrations with this thread. I am going to do the same. Specifically, I am going to answer questions related to the incidents in AFOC, Offtopic, and the Negative Reps. I am going to share my thoughts, etc. So don't come in here ready to unload on me, then get unhappy when I return the favor. OK?

So, shoot...

Brian

[Cruisingdad]

Here was one of the first replies that got this started:

Originally Posted by SEMIJim
Well, Alex, near as I can tell (hard to say, as cam's not a moderator, anymore, but who knows?) they've established a sub-forum, the ostensible purpose of which was to allow members a relatively free venue in which to express their opinions on non-sailing-related matters, and now they're saying there are arbitrary rules--the main one apparently being you're not allowed to say anything at which anybody else might take offense.

Now, apparently the way they want this to work, is they want adult sailors, when they've been offended, or when they see somebody else possibly being offended, or when they see anything that might be construed as being offensive, to run to mommy and tell on the bad person. It is not clear to me exactly how one is supposed to determine if they've witnessed or given offense, being as the definition appears to be somewhat... fluid.

Oh, and nobody but the moderators are smart or wise enough to know a troll or trollish behaviour when they see it. The Moderators are the Only Ones Smart And Wise Enough to make that determination. As such, if you think you've identified a troll, or observed trollish behaviour, speak not of it, other than to one of Sailnet's nannies, lest you incur their wrath.

Does that clarify things for you?

Jim

That was a genuinely crappy and disingenuous post. Thank you for taking the time to belittle me, John, Jeff, (and Cam) with your wit. Perhaps I might ask in the future that you shorten your sneers and tasteless remarks toward us to just a few appropriate adjectives and adverbs that we might might move quicker to the next member's thread/pm who wants to ridicule our efforts to make this a better place for everyone.

- CD

[Cruisingdad]

Originally Posted by SEMIJim
Well, Alex, near as I can tell (hard to say, as cam's not a moderator, anymore, but who knows?) they've established a sub-forum, the ostensible purpose of which was to allow members a relatively free venue in which to express their opinions on non-sailing-related matters, and now they're saying there are arbitrary rules--the main one apparently being you're not allowed to say anything at which anybody else might take offense.

Now, apparently the way they want this to work, is they want adult sailors, when they've been offended, or when they see somebody else possibly being offended, or when they see anything that might be construed as being offensive, to run to mommy and tell on the bad person. It is not clear to me exactly how one is supposed to determine if they've witnessed or given offense, being as the definition appears to be somewhat... fluid.

Oh, and nobody but the moderators are smart or wise enough to know a troll or trollish behaviour when they see it. The Moderators are the Only Ones Smart And Wise Enough to make that determination. As such, if you think you've identified a troll, or observed trollish behaviour, speak not of it, other than to one of Sailnet's nannies, lest you incur their wrath.

Does that clarify things for you?

Jim

Quote from Sailaway21

There is more than a good measure of truth in the above post and I think that CD's response to it is itself an over-reaction to it.

I've found the moderators here to be genuinely committed to sailnet and they have generally exhibited a steady and gentle hand in their moderation. I cannot say that they have always been consistent but they are limited in number and the task is immense. I'll always cut them slack for what may initially appear unjust; until I know the facts.

I do not know all of the facts in the matter at hand but I am somewhat surprised that the moderators have apparently devoted more attention to a reasoned discussion on the nature of the word troll and how it constitutes a personal attack, than in actual troll-like behavior. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed.

Lest there be any misunderstanding, my disappointment is not that there was not a banishment or other penalty imposed. I'd never consider being a moderator myself because I'm rabidly for free speech, even speech that offends, and I'd have not banned or suspended some of those well-known past transgressors. My disappointment, and I suspect T34C's, is that much of the moderator's communications regarding what is over the line is done via the PM with the transgressor alone. That's fine on the face of it, and certainly a gentlemanly way of doing things, but it ignores the benefits of publicly stating exactly what was indeed over the line, in this case, trollish. That's how the moniker "arbitrary" becomes attached to the moderator. In defense of Cam's past moderation, it seems to me he always managed to convey his disgust with a member or a post long before the red button came out. I thought it an appropriate way of treading the fine line he trod between being moderator and participating member.

I sympathize greatly with Giu's sentiments regarding "rules" in Off Topic. At the moment we've a membership that desperately wants to say, "you're a horse's ass" to another member but now feels inhibited from doing so lest it be interpreted as a "personal attack". Not all are quite so willing or capable of parsing their thoughts to say, "you're acting like a horse's ass", a distinction virtually without meaning.

Ironic that, as in the past, the membership was allowed full throat in their condemnation of certain other members. CCP comes to mind. So I am, rather unwillingly, finding myself drawn to the "arbitrary" crowd. I'm not upset, just perplexed. No matter though, as my current condition is no fault but my own.

I was advised by members, members I respect immensely, to ignore the individual I am now ignoring. (g) I chose not to do so and continued to engage him. I was advised otherwise and did not heed the advise. I've now remedied that, regret that I did not do so sooner, and I fully expect to be much the happier for it. I have no one to blame but myself and certainly not the moderators.

Jim's point above rings true for me because I think this whole crying to moderators business because one got one's toes stepped on get's carried away. The moderators shouldn't have to be that busy. And one of the best ways of ensuring that is letting the members assert themselves. There are countless examples herein of members censuring each other or, at least, giving some friendly advise to lighten up. (The first time I cast aspersions on that leaky, pox-skinned death trap, the yacht Giulietta, I instantaneously received a PM from a long-standing member on the gaucheness of insulting a member's boat or wife.) That's healthy.

Off Topic was created to take the vitriol and the distractions out of the sailing forums. We were told that there would be a certain relaxed attitude as to the standards compared to the sailing forums. I believe there is a sticky, buried among the excessive number of stickies here, to that effect. We weathered page after page of basically anti-Semitic remarks here and all that happened was we saw the offending member essentially break the negative reputation scale. It was actually an amazing example of democracy in action. We're now supposed to take a discussion of the word troll as a personal slight seriously? At some point folks, you've got to call a duck, a duck, due deference having been shown to observed waddling, quacking, and so forth.

This thread is not exclusively a bitch session. That occurs; guilty as charged. It has though, since inception, served as an open forum for members to vent and, more importantly, hash out their differences...in a public way. It's mostly kidding around but, it's also where people come to cry foul. It's where, in real time, people could comment on the melt-down going on in the bulldog thread while, simultaneously trying to be reasonable in that thread itself. Same with solar world and the assault of the conchs. That might have become lost over time due to the influx of new members; it's not like there's an AFOC code or set of directives. And it's always been open to all members and not just designated AFOC's. We've certainly appreciated the relaxed posting standards herein and probably done our best to abuse them. Let's not get too PC now.

My personal opinion and suspicion is that members who run to Mommy Moderator probably don't linger here much anyway and it's more the pity that the moderators have to take them seriously. I wouldn't and that's enough to self reject the notion of ever being one. I'd encourage everyone to hash out their differences more openly for the betterment of all.

For those keeping track, I've retired the horse's ass of the month award for lack of competition, as well as the current Off Topic politically correct climate.

We've lost some good long-standing members over this...yeah, I know they shoulda, coulda, woulda, etc... but it's something to think about.

[smackdaddy]

CD - just your doing this says a lot about your attitude and sense of fairness and honor. You take more schlock on this site than just about anyone. And you let it bounce off. Personally, I'm amazed at your ability to continually do that. I wish I had more of that in me.

Being completely forthright here, I personally have no complaints whatsoever with your (or any of the other mods') moderation. And I say that understanding full well my own somewhat tenuous position.

Also, in that regard, I'm happy to address any questions you have of me.

Thanks for your work, your patience, and your fairness.

(PS - I'm not just brown-nosing here, or covering for past sins. I mean this.)

[camaraderie]

Yes...pls. do leave me out of it!! Thanks for that!

Anyway...my major issue with moderation (not yours Bri...but all...including when I was doing it.) is the current inability to deal with trolls unless they actually break a rule. I think the community is degraded by trolls and should be able to protect itself though a process to identify them and eliminate them...without the mods being accused of bias. Your thoughts on if you think this is needed and if so, what your solution would be?

[Cruisingdad]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

CD - just your doing this says a lot about your attitude and sense of fairness and honor. You take more schlock on this site than just about anyone. And you let it bounce off. Personally, I'm amazed at your ability to continually do that. I wish I had more of that in me.

Being completely forthright here, I personally have no complaints whatsoever with your (or any of the other mods') moderation. And I say that understanding full well my own somewhat tenuous position.

Also, in that regard, I'm happy to address any questions you have of me.

Thanks for your work, your patience, and your fairness.

(PS - I'm not just brown-nosing here, or covering for past sins. I mean this.)

I am suprised by that comment(s). Thank you.

Brian

[CharlieCobra]

I've seen this handled on other forums by the simple deletion of the inflammatory post and a PM being sent to the offender with an explanation and / or warning. It seems to work there when it's kept out of the public eye. Of course, when a sh!tfight starts from the post it can be difficult to reign it in. You guys are doing fine. While I do see some members getting away with a bit more than others at times, it's usually limited to OT, short in duration and the members in question far outweigh those faux pas with good contributions. You guys are doing fine so don't sweat it.

[marty9876]

So this is what happens to sailors in the winter...

I have no idea what all the hub-ubb (sp?) is about but I can surmise most of it.

Strictly speaking from a mod/forum point of view it's a very good thing CD is willing to solicit feedback from the forum members. Many mods don't and turn a blind eye to feedback offered. However, take it all with a grain of salt. Someone, admins of the forum, asked you to deal with all aspects of this role regardless and you agreed. This is not a democracy and as such sometimes the forum members just have to live with the influence the mod staff has over the forum. It's life.

Hope this provides a positive influence for you. I've been up to my eye lids in forum messes in the past (other forums) and know what it's like to be overly committed so something of this nature.

Just make Alex a mod and all will be fixed!!!

[Cruisingdad]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

Yes...pls. do leave me out of it!! Thanks for that!

Anyway...my major issue with moderation (not yours Bri...but all...including when I was doing it.) is the current inability to deal with trolls unless they actually break a rule. I think the community is degraded by trolls and should be able to protect itself though a process to identify them and eliminate them...without the mods being accused of bias. Your thoughts on if you think this is needed and if so, what your solution would be?

Trolls... first of all, I have no real problem with the 'name'. After discussion with Jeff and John, we may remove that. The point was not the name, it was the name calling.

I guess after doing this bit for a while, I have cone to the conclusion that we simply are nto going to be able to stop namecalling, per se. So what if we rmove troll? What if someone calls you childish... as I was recently called. Or what if they say you are silly? Does silly constitute a personal attack? Nah. Not to me. But some mught feel it is so.

Regarding those whose actions might be defined as trolls, there simply is not a good answer in my opinion. Giu stirs up crap here all the time, as does sailaway21 and many others. Are they trolls? Certainly not. They are great contributors. Many here have said that Smackdaddy is a troll. Yet, he has also contributed to threads which were of interest to him (BFS, etc). To me, at least, a troll is someone with no interest in a site, that simply posts a few flamers to piss everyone off (then promptly leaves). Now those we have had, though not as many.

For you old members that obviously do not like Smackdaddy, I will tell you that there are many members that do. I can also tell you that there are some well known members (very well known) that have cause as much or more stir than Smackdaddy. Take that information as gospel, because it certainly is the truth.

My irritation, and difficulty, is when a member is consistently stirring the pot and causing trouble. I could give a crap if they have broken the rules or not. If I simply have to spend too much time cleaning up their mess, they will reach a point where they are not worth it. I have yet to reach that point with any member since I have been a moderator.

My philiosophy is that I have no boundaries when it comes to banning. I can and will ban you for your hair color if I so desire. I never have, though. I have been criticized for not banning when I should. I have been criticized for trying to work something out when I should not. I have been criticized for writing long responses explaining my actions when I should just move on.

So how to deal with trolls? My best solution to you guys is to ignore them. It is a simply button, then it is done. Send me a pm that they are pissing you off. I will review the information. I may or may not take action then. At least I have some recurring information by which to make future judgements. If a member reaches a point that they are too difficult and too much trouble to keep around, I will give them a temporary or permanent vacation. I cannot put what that time is in rules because there is no clear cut rule for what constitutes it. There never will be - at least not one that works.

This goes back to the mods decisions being arbitrary. We simply do not have a chioce. I do not see any other system working that would not be abused or that would cover all circumstances.

Brian

[Giulietta]

CD..I see no reason why you should think you should write this thread, really..

All is good, and we solve the issues as they go..it's a comunity..we act as such..

Really no need for this thread, I think,