Are you All Wimps? What the hell is wrong!!??

[Valiente]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

My frustration is that the entire evening went by and not one single person out of the hundreds that were on line at any point in time made a single comment or expressed any outrage. Do you think Giu would have been quiet about this if he weren't recovering from major surgery?

Cam, to be fair, the time has long since passed when many people here even bothered to check Off-topic, due to the high level of ranting, politics, and mouth-foaming, all of which contributed to the creation of a new sandbox for this purpose...which I also avoid.

I have advised Alex to avoid Off-topic as well, because it has caused him a lot of grief even as it has fed his instinct to put the cat amongst the pigeons or just to start amusing arguments. Let's say this particular sub-forum is a taste I have generally failed to acquire.

So perhaps people didn't respond because they were "wimps", but because your case, which I think is very much "on topic" to the reasons people contribute at all to Sailnet's forums, went to "off topic" with all the other unsorted recyclables.

[bubb2]

Ring Ring, Ring Ring. Hello this is Tartan Yachts, I want to talk to you about that Portuguese fellow!

[JohnRPollard]

Posting as moderator.

All,

I can appreciate the many sentiments expressed here.

But the intent of Rob Proctor's note was not to quash reasonable discussion of products, their attributes, or shortcomings. Everyone should feel free to continue offering their opinion on the merits of products with which they have had positive or negative experiences. This is one of the great strengths of Sailnet and will continue to be.

Some of you have pointed out that a literal reading of Rob's note contradicts the interpretation I have given immediately above. The answer is that while Rob's note could be interpreted more broadly, it in fact was intended to respond to a specific situation that has arisen with respect to the Tartan threads.

What Rob Proctor RELUCTANTLY did -- yet again under threat of legal harassment from Tartan -- was ask that folks refrain from further pursuing here on Sailnet one very specific issue, the so-called "Tartan issue". This was a very difficult decision for a business such as Sailnet -- which is dedicated to helping the community of sailors -- to make. Faced with a difficult choice of mounting an expensive legal battle and risking an injunction that could literally shut-down Sailnet, or facing criticism but surviving to fight another day, Rob has made the decision that the latter choice is preferable. Based on my knowledge of all the circumstances, I agree with him.

Understand that times are extremely tough all around in the recreational marine industry, and marine retail is not exempt from the challenges. Some may feel that "caving" to the likes of Tartan is ultimately more detrimental to their business model, but the folks who own Sailnet have considered those arguments and rejected them. Their goal is to make sure SailNet survives. Speculating, I suspect their fondest hope -- and ultimate retribution -- is to ensure that SailNet will outlast Tartan.

We unfortunately live in a litigious society. And the costs of defending against unwelcome or harassing lawsuits can be staggering, and sometimes prohibitive even to established businesses. SailNet cannot at this time afford the legal firestorm that results from hosting threads which discuss "issues" with Tartan yachts. It is a simple financial fact.

Other members have suggested forming a legal defense fund to assist SailNet with this matter. SailNet estimates that a minimum of US$50K would need to be raised to mount such a defense. As a first step, I would suggest that someone posit a Sailnet poll to survey the membership about their interest in this effort and how much they would individually be willing to contribute. After that, I would suggest subsequent coordination take place "off-line" rather than in the public forums.

[Cruisingdad]

Originally Posted by JohnRPollard

Posting as moderator.

All,

I can appreciate the many sentiments expressed here.

But the intent of Rob Proctor's note was not to quash reasonable discussion of products, their attributes, or shortcomings. Everyone should feel free to continue offering their opinion on the merits of products with which they have had positive or negative experiences. This is one of the great strengths of Sailnet and will continue to be.

Some of you have pointed out that a literal reading of Rob's note contradicts the interpretation I have given immediately above. The answer is that while Rob's note could be interpreted more broadly, it in fact was intended to respond to a specific situation that has arisen with respect to the Tartan threads.

What Rob Proctor RELUCTANTLY did -- yet again under threat of legal harassment from Tartan -- was ask that folks refrain from further pursuing here on Sailnet one very specific issue, the so-called "Tartan issue". This was a very difficult decision for a business such as Sailnet -- which is dedicated to helping the community of sailors -- to make. Faced with a difficult choice of mounting an expensive legal battle and risking an injunction that could literally shut-down Sailnet, or facing criticism but surviving to fight another day, Rob has made the decision that the latter choice is preferable. Based on my knowledge of all the circumstances, I agree with him.

Understand that times are extremely tough all around in the recreational marine industry, and marine retail is not exempt from the challenges. Some may feel that "caving" to the likes of Tartan is ultimately more detrimental to their business model, but the folks who own Sailnet have considered those arguments and rejected them. Their goal is to make sure SailNet survives. Speculating, I suspect their fondest hope -- and ultimate retribution -- is to ensure that SailNet will outlast Tartan.

We unfortunately live in a litigious society. And the costs of defending against unwelcome or harassing lawsuits can be staggering, and sometimes prohibitive even to established businesses. SailNet cannot at this time afford the legal firestorm that results from hosting threads which discuss "issues" with Tartan yachts. It is a simple financial fact.

Other members have suggested forming a legal defense fund to assist SailNet with this matter. SailNet estimates that a minimum of US$50K would need to be raised to mount such a defense. As a first step, I would suggest that someone posit a Sailnet poll to survey the membership about their interest in this effort and how much they would individually be willing to contribute. After that, I would suggest subsequent coordination take place "off-line" rather than in the public forums.

I suggest instead a true fund... with no less than 50k in it. I don't want words, I want money. I want your addresses and the names of your legal representation. I want a written committment to file suit from your lawyers.

Don't anonymously click on the poll and go home tonight. You talk to your families and tell them you will engage them in a legal battle. Talk means nothing. You put your money, your assets, your time, and your ass on the line too. You in that Ohio Court Room.

$50,000. That is the number, to start with, along with a committment to stand behind Sailnet should they lose with YOUR assetts.

Brian

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Cruisingdad

Ok,

I have been quiet on this for a long, long time. Unlike 99% of you, I actually know (or mostly know) the facts surrounding this matter and what has happened behind the scenes.

Quite frankly, with no offense to my good friend George, this really pisses me off. For about the second time since I have joined this site, I have lost my temper.

I am working my ass off trying to come up with new ways to make this place better. I cannot speak to those yet. No one knows about them but me, Rob, and a few other specific people. But we are trying to develop some new things. Then... I read this and some of the comments here.

Am I happy about the thing being pulled? Hell no. I am not. But I am mostly pissed off about the circumstances that had it pulled, versus the thread in the first place. Think, guys... think! The frustration should not be at Sailnet. You wanna go run to Cruisers forum... SA? Give me a break. CF is the most boring politically wrought forum I have ever been to. SA? Yes, I have been there. I watched the Tartan thing get going like a $10 dollar table dance. It stopped about as quickly too. And if it was not shut down by Tartan, then maybe you should ask, why!? I mean this with no dissrespect, but I cannot take much that those guys do with any credibility anyways. It is not to say that they do not mean well, but maybe we are being attacked and singled out here because this place actually holds some level of credibility with the community. Then I read some of the crap here. We have a community here with guy sthat care for one another. I got phone numbers of many members. They have mine. You have my kids photos, where I live, my company... everything. You see me putting that on SA? Would you!?? Would Giulietta go to SA? Would Alex go to Cruisers forum!?? Give me a break.

Yes, Rob pulled the thread. He did not just wake up one day, read the threads, then decide to pull it for God's sakes. He did it because he had to. Now, once again, like a broken record, ask yourself why he had to???? I will, however, talk to Rob about it again given the many comments here and elsewhere. I will see what can be worked out, but don't hold your breath. Let me tell you why...

The Great Idea of a Defense Fund...

So you want to start talking about a defense fund, eh? Max-on, Dan Goldberg, start quoting these guys some real numbers. Ok, so I am going to piss off some people, and that is not my intent... but I find that many people that start running around talking about this have no clue how much corporate representation costs. I do. I got another bill sitting on my desk right now. My fund last year for my company was well in excess of 10,000 for AN EXCAHNGE OF LETTERS AND ONE TO TWO FREAKING PHONE CALLS BETWEEN LAWYERS. YOU HEARD ME RIGHT. THAT IS $600/HOUR, MINIMUM 1/2 HOUR. YOU THINK SAILNET HAS LESS EXPENSIVE REPRESENTATION?????? I HAVE TO KEEP A RETAINER, UP FRONT. THAT ALONE IS MANY THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. IMAGINE THE HOURS AND HOURS OF SIMPLY READING THROUGH THE TARTAN THREAD AT $600/HOUR BY MULTIPLE LAWYERS. IMAGINE THE TIME SPENT TO SIT DOWN AS A TEAM AND DISCUSS THE OPTIONS. IMAGINE THE TIME SPENT IMPLEMENTING THEM AND RESEARCHING THEM. WE HAVE NOT EVEN GOT TO COMMUNICATION BETWEEN PARTIES YET.

Their firm will want to be retained. This ain't the Hammer where he gets 33 percent. There is nothing, NOTHING, to be won monetarily. All you MIGHT win is rightousness. Want to know how much that will cost?? THe number, should we win, shall be in the $50,000 dollar range. That is what was quoted. They checked. They spent the money and time to research this and see what they could do. And you heard me right... $50k. Those numbers mesh with what I pay, so I have no reason to doubt it. They also said it could be more. If they lose... well, it would not be pretty. The name up top would change from Sailnet to Tartanet.

We just put together about $500 for Alex... one of our dearest members. That is a guy we love and know personally who has helped and housed many, many here. Let's pretend we love Sailnet no less. We had, out of the hundreds of people here, and thousands of members, a solid 18 members that contributed. EIGHTEEN!!! Several members got stuck with more than the others - but we won't go there. Let's pretend that we divide the dense fund by 19... which includes Rob (who also contributed heavily in money to Alex's get well card and well more than most). $50,000/19 is $2,631/member. No less. $3,000 to win - to each of you, minimum.

When you guys get the cajones together to drop close to $3,000 dollars a piece, no less, to SAilnet - you let me know. I will talk to Kris about pulling 3 grand out of our cruising kitty or my kids college fund and sending it to sailnet for your Ritousness fund. Never mind I do not even own one of their damned boats and never, never, never, never will. I also believe that since we are pushing Sailnet to do this beyond their wishes, we should take responsibility for all losses should we actually lose. That number would likely easily exceeed $3,000/piece. Shall I also mention that I think we should each name ourselves in the suit and retain our own legal representation? My lawyer will certainly love it. Because if you are not willing to stand up, beside Rob, in a Ohio court, day in and day out through this process, with your legal representation, then get out now because you are nothing but a damned hippocrit. Put you money, your assets, time, and your future on the line with Rob. Don't send the guy $25 dollars and tell him to have a great time watching his business, assets, and life dissapear. Don't forget to tell all the employees whose jobs and families will go on the line too to that we have to do what is right because we were forced to have a thread pulled from our sailing site.

And if you cannot afford three thousand dollars, plus legal representation, plus putting all your assets on the line, plus your time.... if you don't want to pony up, then shut the hell up and enjoy the cheap seats. You get what you paid for.

Jesus Christ, Lord, help me.

Brian

+1.

[JohnRPollard]

Originally Posted by Cruisingdad

I suggest instead a true fund... with no less than 50k in it. I don't want words, I want money. I want your addresses and the names of your legal representation. I want a written committment to file suit from your lawyers.

Don't anonymously click on the poll and go home tonight. You talk to your families and tell them you will engage them in a legal battle. Talk means nothing. You put your money, your assets, your time, and your ass on the line too. You in that Ohio Court Room.

$50,000. That is the number, to start with, along with a committment to stand behind Sailnet should they lose with YOUR assetts.

Brian

Brian, I'm completely with you. I suggested the poll because if folks reply truthfully, I think it will put this issue to rest. If I'm wrong, then your approach would be the next step.

[Sapperwhite]

to clarify, my

scumbags

wasn't directed at sailnet or rob or robs post. that was for the company that shall not be named.

i understand sailnets position and don't see any benefit of them getting in a pissing match with the company that shall not be named.

i don't think this reflects poorly on sailnet, it certainly reflects poorly on "them".

will they show up at my dock and hand me a lawsuit if i'm overheard talking all the s*** i can about this situation (which i most likely will now)?

[Giulietta]

C&c boats crack!!! And they don't want you to know about it!!! - Boating, Sailing and Cruising Forum: For Cruisers - BY Cruisers

[Valiente]

When I worked in marketing (which incidentally paid for my first sailboat and led directly to our current plans), we put a high premium on "word of mouth". A simple recounting of this current situation in as brief or as expanded a form as you wish to whomever wishes to hear it will go farther...and faster...than any post or lawsuit would in helping customers of either Tartan or Sailnet to determine where their dollars and interest should go.

The smart money rarely discounts the power of "word-of-mouth", but it is quite clear here to me that a certain boat manufacturer possesses little in the way of smart money.

I do not blame Rob/Sailnet in this regard, because I pay nothing for this service. Sailnet and its employees have bills to pay, and my only decision is to evaluate the utility of their (free to me) service in the form of this forum.

I wouldn't buy the current C&C, so I am largely indifferent to their mischief. I will not hesitate, however, to relate the events here to anyone who cares to listen at the annual C&C Regatta at the National Yacht Club held every July here in Toronto and at which several of the newer (and, I hope, uncracked) C&Cs are displayed.

In this respect, I have far more ability than Sailnet or its staff to critique the products, service and tactics of Novus and T. Jackett than they do.

So does every individual here.

I suggest you exercise that franchise, strongly and often. Bleating about it here accomplishes exactly zero. Very few new boats will be sold in North America in the next five years. Word of mouth determine which boats make even that cut, just as they will those of the American car makers unwilling to sell what people want, and sooner, because I don't think Tim Jackett will be getting an idiotic government bail-out for his product line.

[US27inKS]

I would venture a guess that Tartan can't afford to mount a lawsuit against Sailnet anyway. Not that I blame Rob for not wanting to find out. Didn't someone here post a copy of the lawsuit that Tartan is currently involved in for not paying their lawyers? It's hard to get lawyers to continue doing work for you if you don't pay them.