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Old 09-20-2011
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United States Veto against Palestine?

In some days Palestine will ask to the United Nations Security Council to be integrated in the world community as a Nation.

Admission to the United Nations as a full member state requires a recommendation from the 15-member Security Council, with a majority of nine votes, and no veto from the five permanent members, which include the United States. Then the submission goes to the General Assembly, which must pass it by a two-thirds vote among the 193 members.
....

Mr. Abbas’s plan, made public in a television address, follows months of failed American and European efforts to restart Palestinian negotiations with Israel.
....
Palestinians say that after decades of occupation and about 20 years of failed talks with an increasingly hawkish Israel, it is time for a new approach in which the borders of a Palestinian state are first recognized globally and then two states, Israel and Palestine, negotiate final details.

The decision to apply for membership through the Council signals a double defeat for the United States. Washington not only failed to dissuade the Palestinians from a unilateral bid for statehood, but also fell short of its goal of confining the application to the United Nations General Assembly, where Obama administration officials believe a vote in favor of statehood would be more symbolic and less divisive.

The Obama administration has vowed to use its veto at the Council to prevent full recognition of Palestine. But it is eager to avoid doing so because that action would likely leave the United States isolated on the issue, weakening its standing with Arab nations at a politically delicate moment.

“We need to have full membership at the U.N.,” Mr. Abbas said in the speech from his office in the West Bank city of Ramallah, which was broadcast live on Al Jazeera and other outlets. “We need a state, a seat at the United Nations.”

One goal of the move is to gain admission to a range of international legal and diplomatic forums where complaints against Israeli occupation and settlement could be pursued. Mr. Abbas said he was not seeking to delegitimize Israel, only to advance negotiations between two equals.

For the Obama administration, the move poses an acute dilemma. It has vowed to use its veto because it argues that the only viable way toward Palestinian statehood is through direct talks with Israel. But for the past eight months, Arab countries have risen in revolt against dictators and the Palestinian question has totemic significance for the entire region.

The United States has struggled to place itself on the side of those seeking justice and freedom in the current revolts. But the Obama administration has supported uprisings in Libya and, less strongly, in Syria, while looking the other way during a crackdown by an ally, Bahrain. A veto of Palestinian membership would intensify Arab perceptions of American double standards.



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/17/wo...1&pagewanted=2

Will we see the will of the United States overcoming the will of the vast majority of all other countries in a subject that is consensual for almost all.

Well, that is certainly good for Israel but I doubt that in a long term will be good for US.

If Obama vetoes the demand he will be certainly under a lot of pressure from all the other countries and principally from the Security Council to found out one solution since all that he has proposed till now to Israel has been turned down.

Regards

Paulo
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Old 09-20-2011
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Palestinians Defy the U.N. Charter
September 15, 2011 2:06 P.M.
By David French

Does international law matter? Do U.N. member states respect the U.N. Charter? The Palestinian Authority has declared it will seek statehood at the U.N. as early as next week. They will do so with the full backing of every Islamic nation in the world and with the expected backing of numerous other nations that are historically hostile to Israel. It’s critical to understand, however, that if the U.N. recognizes the Palestinian Authority, it will violate its own charter, violate longstanding norms of international law, and further impair its credibility with vital (and powerful) members of the world community.

Let’s take a closer look:

The Charter requires respect for existing treaties.

We the peoples of the United Nations determined to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising out of treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained.” (From the Preamble)

By recognizing a unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state, the U.N. would be an accomplice to a fundamental breach of the Oslo Accords which prohibit either side from taking any steps to change the status of the West Bank or Gaza pending the outcome of permanent status negotiations.

The Charter opens U.N. Membership to “states” only, not to “movements.”

Membership in the United Nations is open to all other peace loving states which accept the obligations contained in the present Charter and, in the judgment of the Organization, are able and willing to carry out these obligations. (Article 4.1)

The Palestinian Authority flunks this test on several counts. First, U.N. membership is open to “states” only. Granting membership to an entity which cannot meet the most basic and accepted international legal requirements for statehood would not only be a violation of this foundational requirement, it would set a dangerous precedent in international relations. Note that the question of whether the Palestinian entity can qualify as a state is a distinct question from whether one thinks the Palestinians ought to have a state. To regard the West Bank and Gaza Strip as a “state” would mean stretching the meaning of the term beyond all reason.

The accepted international criteria for statehood are laid out in the Montevideo Convention of 1933: a permanent population, a defined territory, government and capacity to enter into relations with the other states. The West Bank and Gaza Strip clearly fail to meet these criteria. The only authority exercised by the Palestinian Authority (PA) is that which it has through the sufferance of Israel, the parameters of which are defined in the Oslo Accords: the population and territory under the PA’s authority, the extent of its governing power and ability to carry on foreign relations only extend as far as that to which Israel has agreed. If the PA presses ahead with its unilateral course, its breach of the Oslo Accords would allow Israel to actually dismantle the PA.

The danger of the PA’s approach is obvious. If the U.N. nullifies all objective criteria for statehood — leaving recognition open for all aspiring separatist movements with sufficient political influence — then it has laid a foundation for perpetual, bloody conflict. The floodgates would open for the multitude of secessionist groups worldwide who would easily qualify for statehood under the “new rules,” whether they be Tibetans, Tamils, Basques, Kurds, or any of the countless others seeking recognition of their “right” to independence and statehood.

The proposed Palestinian state is engaged in open, offensive war against Israel.

To practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbors” (Preamble)

To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace” (Article 1.2)

Any declaration of independence on 1967 lines leaves the most populous city in the new Palestinian “state” in the hands of Hamas, a terrorist organization at open war with Israel. Moreover, the Palestinian Authority and Hamas have declared an intention to form a unity government, leaving the whole of Palestinian territory under at least partial control of terrorists.

As for “equal rights,” the PLO’s ambassador to the United States declared that any new Palestinian state should be judenrein, cleansed of all Jews. This declaration stands in stark contrast to Israel, which grants its Arab citizens full civil rights — indeed, Israel’s Arab citizens enjoy more civil liberties than the citizens of any Arab country in the Middle East.

The Charter repeatedly emphasizes the need for peaceful resolutions to conflict:

All members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.(Article 2.3)

All members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations. (Article 2.4)

The prevailing deeply-held belief (and longstanding practice) of the PLO and Hamas is that they are entitled to use violence — to advance the maximalist goal of destroying Israel, or the more modest goal of ending Israel’s so-called “occupation” of the “Territories.” The unrelenting campaign of Palestinian terror, the content of the charters of the PLO and Hamas, and the widespread incitement to violence in Palestinian society are beyond dispute.

This commitment to violence demonstrates that the Palestinians at present are simply not “able and willing” to carry out their obligations under the Charter. Even if, for argument’s sake, one were to accept that the Palestinians were genuinely “willing” to take on the obligations attendant to U.N. membership, very recent history shows they are not “able” to do so. The Palestinian Authority lost its short and vicious civil war with Hamas, leaving Hamas in total control of the Gaza Strip. Does any reasonable person believe that the PA is “able” to restrain Hamas? Has the PA ever demonstrated an ability to restrain Hamas? Can the Palestinian delegation to the U.N. provide any reassurance that Hamas won’t also seize the West Bank — either through bullets or the ballot?

The Palestinians Intend to Circumvent the Proper Admission Procedure.

The admission of any such state to membership in the United Nations will be effected by a decision of the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the Security Council. (Article 4.2)

The Charter’s meaning is plain: A Security Council recommendation is a prerequisite to membership. There were sound reasons for the framers of the Charter to vest this responsibility with the world’s leading powers in the Security Council, among them the need for the Security Council to act as a brake on the General Assembly. Since the U.S. is so far vowing to veto the Palestinian membership bid, the Palestinians may ask the General Assembly to use the obscure “Uniting for Peace” framework and adopt a resolution which, although not legally binding under the Charter, would be a “moral equivalent” to admitting a Palestinian state as a U.N. member. To use a domestic legal example, such a maneuver would be the equivalent of using a congressional resolution to circumvent the Bill of Rights.

Does international law matter? Is the U.N. Charter viable? The questions are that stark. Abandoning international law for the political expedience of recognizing a non-existent Palestinian state could very well lead to even greater violence. The Middle East is a tinderbox, and the Palestinians are trying to strike a match.

— Co-authored with David Benjamin, a Jerusalem-based international law consultant and a former senior legal adviser to the Israel Defense Forces.

Palestinians Defy the U.N. Charter - By David French - The Corner - National Review Online
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Old 09-20-2011
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I believe that the US should continue to support Israel but they should pretty much just butt out of the politics of the region.
I like the image of the US as the defender of the downtrodden. The big brother that has your back if someone is unfairly picking on somebody. But I'm tired of seeing the US involve itself in every body else's business.
I wouldn't mind seeing the UN just go away.
The world may need a policeman, but I'm not so sure that the UN should be the worlds lawmakers.

I actually would like to see the US pull back and concentrate on fixing itself. I know it's a pipe dream though.
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Old 09-20-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBzeer View Post
Palestinians Defy the U.N. Charter
September 15, 2011 2:06 P.M.
By David French

....
By recognizing a unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state, ...
A Declaration of Independence is always unilateral regarding the State or country that does not what that independence.

In 1139 the Portuguese declaration of independence was an unilateral declaration violently contested by Castilla (now a part of Spain).

In 1776 the United States declaration of independence was an unilateral declaration violently contested by England.

There are no such thing as a bilateral declaration of Independence. If US would have waited for that it would still be a part of the United Kingdom

Regards

Paulo
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Old 09-20-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knothead View Post
...
I wouldn't mind seeing the UN just go away.
The world may need a policeman, but I'm not so sure that the UN should be the worlds lawmakers.

...
You talk about United Nations has an entity itself. I mean, United Nations are all Earth nations, including Unites States that is a member.

What you mean about UN going away?

Do you means that all earth nations should not join together looking for peaceful consensus instead of resolving issues through war? With atomic bombs around how much time you think we would have till extinction?

If the role of the world lawmaker should not be exercised by a weighted and careful global will of all earth nations who do you think that would take car of that?

The other option would be necessarily the most powerful countries on earth.

Certainly today United States would have a determinant voice, but in 50 years analysts say that role will be on the hands of China and India.

Do you want your children to live under the international rules dictated by China?

The only way to prevent that is a strong United Nations that will be capable of making prevail global consensus over the isolated opinion of a few, even if they are the stronger.

Regards

Paulo
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Old 09-20-2011
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There was also no UN charter at that time. Either the charter means something or it doesn't.
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Old 09-20-2011
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I understand where you are coming from Paulo. You just have a lot more faith in politicians than I do.
I've lost my confidence in governments. Or more accurately, I've lost my confidence in the people that comprise them.
I am starting to believe that the real solutions to the problems that the world faces will only come when individuals lead the way.
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Old 09-20-2011
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I think there are some 57 muslim countrys who are against Israel. Hammas is dedicated to eliminating all people of Jewish faith. If anyone is going to have to start throwing nuclear weapons it will likely be Israel. Do you expect them to sit idle while all their neighbours are firing rockets at their cities.
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Old 09-20-2011
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I understand where you are coming from Paulo. You just have a lot more faith in politicians than I do.
I've lost my confidence in governments. Or more accurately, I've lost my confidence in the people that comprise them.
I am starting to believe that the real solutions to the problems that the world faces will only come when individuals lead the way.
No my friend. I am quite sure that I have a lower opinion regarding Politicians than your certainly already low opinion about them. Contrary to US that is the dominant perception for most Europeans.

But I believe in Man and it is also true that here with internet exposing all political makeshifts and deception, not to mention personal interest and gain, they have been forced by the people to face reality and to act accordingly.

Politicians will only be the way they are while people continue to believe in their electoral promises and I would say that the situation in the US, in what regards believing them, is worse than here.

Here we have started to talk that Politicians should stand trial when it is found that they deliberately mislead people and promised what they knew already they could not deliver or when delivering what they had promised (knowing that it was unsustainable) have provoked an economic crisis.

No, I am all in favor of that

changing subject, or maybe not, have a look:

The humiliation of Barack Obama

As he prepares to singularly veto Palestine's statehood bid, he must be thinking to himself: 'This isn't right'.

...At some point this coming week, during his visit to the this year's opening of the United Nations General Assembly in New York, US President Barack Obama is going to have a nearly irresistible urge. He is going to want to stand up to his hovering political handlers and the smothering bureaucracy which tries to dictate his every move, summon his personal dignity, and say "Enough".
.....

We all know what the Americans have been saying: That what President Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) is doing is counter-productive, that it is a repudiation of the Oslo Accords, that it is an attempt to avoid the necessity of reaching a negotiated solution with the Israelis. We have seen the US policy juggernaut gearing up, as the same arguments are repeated by US envoys to the Palestinians and to the Quartet, elaborated publicly by the secretary of state and by the White House spokesman, and delivered in dozens of other fora, both great and small.

However, repeating the same thing, loudly and insistently, does not make it so. President Obama knows this very well. He understands the Israeli-Palestinian issue backwards and forwards. He knows the peace process is at a dead end.

Early in his administration, he tried to revive negotiations by mandating a complete West Bank settlement freeze, only to be forced embarrassingly by Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu to back down. When this past May he had the temerity to publicly tell the Israelis that their current policy towards the Palestinians is untenable and unsustainable, and to modestly suggest a negotiating formula to break the impasse, he was publicly chastised by Netanyahu and had to submit to the humiliation of seeing the Congressional leaders of his own party repudiate him in favour of the Israeli prime minister.

In response, though he cannot admit it, Obama has washed his hands of the Palestinian issue. He knows he can do nothing more. And yet, the issue will not go away.

Now, once again, he is being forced to publicly support an Israeli policy position fundamentally opposed to his own. He knows fully well that Netanyahu has no intention of permitting formation of a viable Palestinian state, and that the Palestinians have little choice but to pursue their current course at the UN.

He likewise understands that the US' lonely support for Israel and the inevitable US veto of the Palestinians' bid for full UN membership will undermine, perhaps terminally, the US position in a democratising Middle East, and will expose the US' nominal support for popular Arab rights as a fraud.

...It is one thing to have to sacrifice principle in the face of political reality. All politicians are forced to do so at various points. But it is another to do so in a highly public manner, to have to mouth patent falsehoods in one-on-one meetings with fellow world leaders, who know better and who will think less of you as a result.

This is what lies in store for President Obama in New York, and he knows it.

....
No, the president will swallow his anger, and do what he must do. But it is worth giving some consideration, as the US again undermines its security and its global position, pointlessly and gratuitously, in blind allegiance to an ungrateful and self-destructive ally....

He will suppress this urge, for to do otherwise would spell political suicide. No, the president will swallow his anger, and do what he must do.


Robert Grenier

Robert Grenier is a retired, 27-year veteran of the CIA's Clandestine Service. He was Director of the CIA's Counter-Terrorism Center from 2004 to 2006.


This makes sense to me and is related with what we were talking about:

Politicians

The reason Obama is going to take a stand that he considers morally wrong and strategically against the best US interests is simply because he knows that otherwise he would go against the opinion of the vast majority of Americans and that would be a political suicide.

A true politician, staying in power is what counts, even against the best Geo strategic interests of his country

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 09-20-2011 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 09-20-2011
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Does it matter? Will it change anything? I guarantee you one thing - my 2 1/2 year old granddaughter will be a grandmother herself one day and Arabs and Jews will STILL be killing each other and well meaning people will STILL be talking about the "peace process".

Only a fool sticks his hand into a dogfight. There is no "right" or "wrong" on any side in this fight. It is simple blood feud - "your uncle killed my grandfather so I have to kill you". It has been going on as long as history has been recorded (and probably much longer than that). I once read that the earliest known record of warfare was a record of a war between Arabs and Jews.

I find it to be one of God's best ironic jokes that all of these ancient, deadly hatreds are between people who are virtually indistinguishable to outsiders;

Arabs and Jews
Turks and Greeks
Serbs and Croats

etc. - they look alike, they talk alike, their food is similar, etc. etc. but they have been killing each other since time immemorial over the other, almost indistinguishable differences.

And it ain't going to stop anytime soon. The USA should quietly continue to ensure the survival of Israel, if for no other reason than it is the most civilized country in the region and leave it at that - anything else is a waste of time and resources.
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