Why don't we just ban modern commercial shipping.

[Agri]

Why not just ban all commercial shipping by fossil fuel powered freighters, and returned to wind powered shipping?

Before you condemn, read.

I've been reading the thread over in the general discussion forum about using sailing yachts as merchant vessels, and the global warming thread in this forum.

Regardless of where you stand on the issue of global warming, eliminating modern freighters would help solve a lot of problems we are confronting right now.

Here are the pros and cons as I see them.

Pros

-extend the life of current fossil fuel reserves, a finite resource
-less noise pollution in the ocean allowing better communication between marine creatures
-more jobs created aboard new sailing freighters (I assume it will take more people to crew these sail powered ships as compared to a diesel powered one)
-less jobs going overseas due to increased shipping costs
-more R&D dollars put into developing new sailing technology

Cons

-products take longer to reach market
-merchandise will cost more due to increased shipping costs

I'm sure there are other arguments for and against this I'm not thinking of, however the way I see it the main con would be that Wall-mart prices won't be quite so low, not necessarily a bad thing.

Really though, how awesome would it be to watch a massive super-freighter go by under a cloud of sails.

What do you guys think?

[jzk]

If sail powered freighters were a good solution, they would be in use. Or, if this new idea of yours is a good one, you will become very wealthy implementing your business idea. But I doubt it.

Looks like the marine creatures, as difficult as it sounds, will just have to make due under their current communications systems.

[kd3pc]

In the world you advocate for, why not just ban fossil fuels - period.....

but to play along:

for some things, perhaps...but for LNG/CNG I would prefer the ability to go where needed, when needed and at an appropriate speed. Check out what happens if one of the big boats were to be exploded or bombed....IIRC, the whole Boston Harbor is shut down when these big girls come to unload. Same for the Navy/CG....I much prefer them to have the power and ability to go where and when they want.

The crews, currently 4 or 5, would need to be really large, requiring more training, and since the US has about 10 flag ships, Our rules would be laughed at by the foreign flag carriers. Our nation is then totally dependent on the world, again that may be part of the plan in the long run. Maybe we are there already, and I am too naive to believe it.

the costs of goods, total, would be out of sight considering what this nation is used to. SOMEONE has to pay for the boats, the crews, and all that other stuff. 4 and 5 day crossings would stretch to weeks for some passages. Loading and unloading would be chaos, as the only way to slip them would be by oar driven dories. Would you then require manual unloading of cargo, as all the cranes are electric or hydraulic over something...where would that power come from.

Not sure that you could build a sail powered boat that could haul the huge cargos - and having hundreds of smaller boats is what got us to this point in the first place.

The simple answer that is 100% clean, zero emissions, and has been 100% safe is nuclear power. The navy has been using it since at least 1955, likely longer if you think about it.

Then you could watch a whole city (CV-67, 67) float by....

but then that won't fly by the greenies and environmentalist, or hasn't yet. At some point you have to pick something.

[jackdale]

Voila

[Agri]

Originally Posted by kd3pc

In the world you advocate for, why not just ban fossil fuels - period.....

I'm not advocating for a total ban on fossil fuels. I'm just wondering why freighters need to be powered by them. As far as I'm concerned, once they reach port they can be pushed/towed into position by tugboats. The cranes would be fine as is, all though they may need modifications to work around the masts.

For the in-between part though why not use sails? Its not as if the latest toy shipment from China is time sensitive.

Same for the Navy/CG....I much prefer them to have the power and ability to go where and when they want.

I'm only referring to commercial shipping, what gave you the impression otherwise?

Check out what happens if one of the big boats were to be exploded or bombed

Why are they going to be bombed or exploded? How would that differ from any current ship being "bombed or exploded"

Our rules would be laughed at by the foreign flag carriers

If they were our rules foreign carriers would have to comply, therefore they would need to use sailing ships in order to dock at our ports.

@jackdale

I've seen those before, but they only assist engine power, I'm talking total and complete sail power.

I guess another con would be that they would become easier targets for pirates around Somalia.

Anything else?

[hellosailor]

"Why not just ban "
Comrade, you will be glad to hear the State has just banned all frivolous use of electrically powered home computers, please shut your computer and place it on the curb for pick-up.
Collection of frivolously used home computers, televisions, telephones, light bulbs and other electrical devices will save great amounts of fossil fuels. You will please place all non-essential light bulbs in a box alongside your computer, but you may leave the bulb(s) in your refrigerator/freezer as that non-essential unit will be collected and recycled as a whole.

You have been awarded the Medal of Ban, but an actual medal will not be issued to you since the production of medals consumes precious resources.

[kd3pc]

Originally Posted by Agri

I'm not advocating for a total ban on fossil fuels. I'm just wondering why freighters need to be powered by them.

they don't, see my last point of using nuclear power....

way more deaths in making fossil material in to something useful...see coal, oil, Union Carbide

zero emissions, zero carbon footprint, relatively quiet, small container size, power available for years.....

and in the event of hurricane, they can pull up near shore and supply the entire town for emergencies both water and power...if you can swallow the politics and pundits and enviro's

[SloopJonB]

There is a reason why commercial sail was abandoned in favour of steam / diesel / nuke power. The ability to go where you want, when you want, not where the wind blows you, and to do it in a predictable, timely manner.

Jacks picture shows something that is being experimented with - sail ASSISTED power driven ships. Flettner (sp?) wind turbines are another experiment. It has the potential to make a big dent in the amount of oil they use but an outright ban is simply not workable or going to happen.

[rg500]

how about fishing?....we are taking way too many fish.
How about we make make a rule you can't fish except from a sail powered boat....small gensets for cooling or ice only....

[Agri]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"Why not just ban "
Comrade, you will be glad to hear the State has just banned all frivolous use of electrically powered home computers, please shut your computer and place it on the curb for pick-up.

Whoa, there are a lot of things that are banned/illegal: public urination, robbing banks, murder. I fail to see how simply wanting to change how items are shipped over seas leads to a ban on electronic devices.

@kd3pc I didn't miss your mention of nuclear power. I agree its less environmentally damaging then fossil fuels, unless something goes wrong. Things will eventually go wrong, just look at Fukushima. It doesn't matter how good your safety practices are eventually something breakdowns, goes unnoticed (BP oil platform in the Gulf), or mother nature throws a wrench into things.

@SloopJonB

There is a reason why commercial sail was abandoned in favour of steam / diesel / nuke power. The ability to go where you want, when you want, not where the wind blows you, and to do it in a predictable, timely manner.

Sailing vessels have transported goods for centuries going where they wanted. As for the when they wanted, as technology increased that got more and more reliable. Like I alluded to previously, does it really matter if the latest model iPhone gets here a week after it leaves Asia or a month or two after it leaves? They will still sell like hotcakes.

While a ban on the use of fossil fuels may not be forthcoming anytime soon in regards to trans ocean shipping, its definitely a workable idea.