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  #211  
Old 08-16-2012
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Re: Nissan / Tohatsu 6h 4 stroke

Manual for my engine stated that the alternator wasn't for charging batteries but simply running running lights or instruments on a small boat/dingy etc..

I remember on a 100 mile motor I did with my 6hp tohatsu that It averaged about 2.5 amps at WOT/4700 rpm for me. I used a battery monitor system to track it and it never went over that. Under WOT it was pretty useless for charging. It and the solar panel offset my tillerpilot, radio, and chartplotter usage as well as some of my power usage for a portable refrigerator.


I'm really happy for you that your getting rated RPM's on your engine. your the first person I've talked to that has been able to get it. Your posted speed is right in line with the prop calculations I did for the prop based on getting full rpms also.

Wish mine got that. It's what I paid for and expected to get when I purchased my engine.
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  #212  
Old 08-16-2012
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Re: Nissan / Tohatsu 6h 4 stroke

thanks for the confirmation on charge rate. I wont try & chase too hard to fix it.
My solar panel is putting out enough to match the draw so all is good. Trust you are enjoying the new boat.
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  #213  
Old 08-17-2012
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Re: Nissan / Tohatsu 6h 4 stroke

Glad I could help.

we are living on our Downeaster 38 now and loving the living daylights out of it. Though I have to admit the maintenance on a 38 ft boat sucks compared to the maintenance on a 23.5 ft boat.

we are in the beginning stages of installing about 550 watts of solar power over the next week or two to make us energy independent in the future. Lots of mounting of regular and thin film panels. Lots of wiring. Lots of work. Bigger boat lots more work and dollars.
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  #214  
Old 01-25-2014
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Re: Nissan / Tohatsu 6h 4 stroke

First, I've read every post on every single page of this 'thread that won't die' and I've joined here just to resurrect it to post what's still missing - Although it was stated here in the last couple pages, I got the impression that audeojude still doesn't get it

Boat size (length/beam) wetted surface, hull shape, weight, windage and a few other minor factors determine how a boat will act under power. Audeojude should have this about figured out by now, since so many others have reported better performance using the same Tohatsu 6 HP outboard on larger and heavier boats than his - Obviously there is no problem with the motors

If you have a 6 hp motor which develops it's max power at 5500 RPM, you can't complain, bitch, scream, holler at anyone about poor performance if you don't have your particular engine propped correctly for how you are using it. If you can't get the RPM's the motor needs to develop max power, then you have the wrong prop

Yes, you could not get 5500 RPM on your boat, using any propeller that Tohatsu sells. No doubt in anyone's mind you're not going to get good performance. Whose fault is that? You bought the motor and put it on your boat and only got a little over 4,000 RPM. Obviously . . . . you've got the wrong prop - Nothing else wrong

True, you couldn't get 5500 RPM even when you put it on a dingy. What does that prove? That the engine is mislabeled? That it can never develop 6 HP? That Tohatsu or the Federal Government is pulling a fast one on every boater out there??? - No . . . . it simply proves that even on the dingy you used it on, you're still not correctly propped. Nothing else wrong

Engines have power. 'Connecting' that power to the water is the secret to everything. True, the manufacturer may not sell a propeller for it to exactly match every intended usage. On the inboard diesel in your 38 footer, you can select from an almost infinite choice of diameters and pitches and number of blades so as to get near perfect performance out of your diesel engine - You cannot do that on an outboard unless you modify an existing prop. This is what prop shops do - They fine tune props to give you the optimum performance from your engine. Most people try to get it as close as they can using the best of the few props that the manufacturer sells for that particular engine. You eventually did this, but not before blaming everyone in the universe for your own misunderstanding of what was wrong - That is, not having the correct prop on your motor. Along about page 15, someone eventually got you to try a better prop and you eventually did, but even then you were still complaining about the motor . . . . even though it's prop was still not correctly pitched. Plain and simple

There is nothing wrong with the motor - You eventually got it pitched pretty close, but it's STILL not 'right' for your boat. You did notice when you got it close that it 'outpushes' your previous 4 hp 2 stroke . . . . and you were impressed, but you STILL complained that Tohatsu was selling an inferior, mislabeled, defective product because you could not get the 5500/6000 RPM that you think you should be able to get

You COULD get it, if you had the correct prop . . . . but, unfortunately, nobody makes that prop. You buy the closest one you can get . . . . and then you pay to have it repitched if you want it 'right'

If the prop was correctly pitched for your application you could get 5500 or 5750 or even 6,000 RPM if that's what you want/need. The don't make props from 4 inches of pitch to 8 inches of pitch varying every half an inch so you can fine tune it, like you can with your inboard diesel. That's unfortunate, but that's just the way it is

Good motor, does exactly what it was designed to do . . . . if you have it perfectly pitched for your application

Don

Last edited by alphacarina; 01-25-2014 at 11:24 PM.
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  #215  
Old 01-26-2014
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Re: Nissan / Tohatsu 6h 4 stroke

Just wow... were you in a bad mood and just decided I needed to be a recipient of it? I have to say it is either a credit to my topic that you felt you needed to join sailnet just to respond to this topic, as this is the first and only post you have made since you joined today Or maybe your with tohatsu in some capacity? I'm not sure which, bad mood, raving mad at the topic, or possibly tied to tohatsu but you really went all out with the sarcasm and condescension.

I will admit that I started this post hot under the collar about an engine that to this day I still think doesn't perform to spec, but I have never bashed anyone personally or treated them like your post treats me. Instead I have debated on the facts both with other members and even representatives of dealerships for tohatsu. I even respect the hell out of the the representatives that have talked with me here for the help they gave me both here and on the phone when I called them at their request.

I did say that I eventually got it to give my boat almost equivalent performance. I didn't buy this engine to give me equivalent performance to a 4hp. I bought it to give me a little more power as a safety factor on my boat after getting caught out during a race in 40+ knot winds and the old engine just not having quite enough power to make me happy with the performance in those conditions. I assumed that an engine rated at half again the HP would give me a little better performance. I didn't expect it to turn me into a race boat under power but at least a little improvement would have been reasonable. Instead from the factory I lost 25% or more of the performance I did have. After months of playing with it and putting prop after prop on it I finally got almost equivalent speed with better low end torque than I had before. I don't find this to be reasonable at all.

I never said that it performed as advertised and will stand by that. If tohatsu sells an engine rated to a certain HP at a certain RPM yet that engine and other same model engines can't meet that rpm with any prop sold by them or after market manufactures under a load on any boat from my sailboat all the way down to a dinghy then I stand by my stated belief that the engine does not meet their own specs. What good is an engine rated at 6 hp that under any real world circumstances won't meet that rating period.

Other than that the engine does not produce the power they claim based on their own published specs, it is a reliable engine that works well and has a lot of positive merits. Buyer beware though if you buy it as a performance upgrade on your existing application based on what some other engine is getting on your boat now. Your not going to get that performance upgrade to 6hp. Your going to get performance in-line with 4hp under ideal circumstances.

Not only I but others have made this observations. I was just a bit more upset about it and willing to spend money to get load cells and tachometers to actually do real world tests of performances (I found it interesting the the service center they sent me to with the engine wouldn't test it with a tachometer even after I specifically asked them to). Then I was willing to post it all online after the the treatment the dealer and eventually tohatsu gave me. I will grant that tohatsu was really nice to start with before they finally just blew me off. They still blew me off. Was I upset? Yes I was. Did I have the resources to express my displeasure legally? No. Did I have the ability to post online and express it here? Yes, and I did so politely. The Internet is the age of the small people (like me) being able to effective make known our unhappiness with products and treatment from huge businesses such as tohatsu when they won't treat with us to fix issues. None of what I have said in any post is about me hating tohatsu. It is about being sold a 1700 dollar product that didn't perform as advertised and as needed. It is about poor support by tohatsu and the dealership I purchased the engine from. It's about being able to let the world at large know that here is a product that is not working as advertised and that the manufacture won't fix it or even address the issue at all.

My opinion is that they know that the engine won't meet their specs and that they are ok with that. It's not like 99% of their customers would even notice. Who actually tests products they buy against the specs if it starts fine and runs fine. Just because most people are happy with them because they start and run fine doesn't mean that it is right. It just means that they are ignorant of the deficiency or that in their application they don't care and are ok with it not performing to spec. Thats perfectly fine up until someone pays that 1700 dollars specifically for that officially rated performance.


lol... you certainly wound me back up with your post.. I hadn't thought about this in a long time.
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  #216  
Old 01-26-2014
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Re: Nissan / Tohatsu 6h 4 stroke

Golly . . . . I had to go back and reread every word I wrote to see where I was 'bashing' or attacking you personally. I sure don't see that, nor was it my intention

All I said about you personally was . . . . after 15 pages of discussion, you didn't understand the problem you were having, and your comments today pretty well prove that out - You still don't understand . . . . which is what inspired me to join your community to try one more time to explain things

The second or third reply you got was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timrodabaugh View Post
If you have the outboard incorrectly proped for the application and cant get to the peak power RPM how is that the manufactures fault again?
To which you replied:
Quote:
Originally Posted by audeojude View Post
It is propped to the lowest pitch prop made for the engine and it can't reach nominal rpms. Um... ok... lets see... yeah I do blame the manufacture.

Both the old engine and the tohatsu are rated at hp out at the prop. This is what Tohatsu USA told me even. So 4hp is more powerfull than 6hp now. I guess math is not a strong point for me.
Obviously (to me at least) a complete misunderstanding of the situation, so . . . . One more (well intentioned) try on my part

If you buy a $25K 300 HP outboard, it doesn't come with any propeller at all. Your dealer will research the boat you intend to put it on and come up with what he *thinks* is likely the most correct factory propeller for your intended application. The prop alone might cost you $1500 or more

You put the prop on your boat, take it out for sea trials and see what you have. It probably won't be perfect but you will then have a much better idea of what you need, prop wise. The dealer may actually lend you a prop for this purpose so you're more likely to get something close to correct the first time around

Then, when you're knowledgeable enough to buy a prop for your particular application it still may not be the ideal prop for your boat, but it's the closest thing they make. You run it for a time, noting how it performs the way you use your boat - How you usually have it loaded . . . . fuel, passengers and such. How and where you use it . . . . offshore running in a sea of 18 inch chop, or up a river with very little chop. Maybe you like to run at certain speeds and want to 'tune' the boat/motor combination for best fuel economy

Anyway, after running it for a season or so, you probably should take your $1500 prop to a prop shop, spend $300 or so and have the pitch readjusted to improve the performance of your boat. It will be money well spent. There are prop shops all over and this service is all they do

Even for $25K motors, the engine manufacturer only makes a limited number of different propellers and it's a good possibility that none of them will do exactly what you want/need on your personal boat. There are literally a thousand different boats the motor they sell could wind up powering - The manufacturer is totally helpless as to how you are going to use the motor they sell you . . . . and it's up to you and NOT them to 'make it right'

You understood NONE of this when you began this thread and it just amazed me that 1.) You began by bashing everyone and everything. You thought you were deceived. You thought the motor you bought was defective. You thought there was this big conspiracy by Tohatsu to sell motors rated at 6 HP which actually had less power than your old well worn 4 HP 2 stroke. You thought the government was in on the conspiracy. You blamed every single person up and down the line EXCEPT FOR the guy who bought the motor who didn't have any comprehension of what was actually happening

When you buy a small motor under 8 HP or so, no manufacturer sells a large selection of props to fit them, so it's not going to be easy tune the motor to your particular application . . . . but never mind, because you didn't even know that ANY motor needs to be tuned to work properly with any given boat . . . . and I'm still not sure you understand this today

Your motor would run 5500 to 6,000 RPM on a 6 foot dink and give you the rated 6 HP, just like it would also run 5500 to 6,000 RPM pushing a 30 foot ten ton steel barge . . . . if you had the proper prop on it for each application

With the factory prop, it wouldn't go above 5,000 RPM when you put it on the dingy. Have you put it on the dingy again now that you have the power pitched prop on the motor? It will do 6,000 RPM easily now pushing that dink. The prop you have now probably isn't 'right' for the dink either, because even though it will easily come up to max RPM (and give you it's rated 6 HP) it's now underpitched and can't get a good 'bite' on the water to make the dink go fast - The dink may go slower at 6,000 RPM using all of it's 6 HP than it used to go at 5,000 RPM where it as only making 5 HP

Neither of those props are 'right' for the intended use

Long story short - You cannot go out and buy ANY outboard which comes with a general purpose propeller and expect it to perform well on any given boat from 8 feet to 25 feet and weights from 150 pounds to 3,500 pounds. It's ridiculous to even expect that to be the case. It's also not very realistic to expect them to be able to sell you the exact correct propeller for every boat from 150 to 3500 pounds - That would require them to make 12 or 15 different props for ever motor they sell

Your old 4 HP worked well because it happened to be pretty closely matched to your sailboat. Did the motor come that way right out of the box . . . . or was the previous owner of your boat and motor experienced enough to know how to match them together? If your old 4 HP motor was bought online without any advice from anyone and worked as well as it does when that guy clamped it on the stern and fired it up without making any prop changes, then he got extremely lucky is all I can say - THAT was a one in a million shot. He should have gone to the casino that very day

Then, along came you - You bought a boat/motor which were properly matched, worked well and you decided to make a change. You went on-line with zero knowledge or experience and bought something that you thought should be quieter, smoother, more fuel efficient and push your boat more easily to hull speed with less throttle applied . . . . and you didn't get so lucky - Your motor didn't match up well with your boat (or even the dink) straight out of the box . . . . and you were disappointed . . . . and admittedly 'hot under the collar'

It was 100% because you didn't know what you were doing

I realize you don't use the boat any longer, so none of this really matters to you, but you are STILL of the opinion that your 6 HP Tohatsu isn't a good motor . . . . not only not for you, but not for anybody who wants to use it as a sailboat auxiliary and that's a real shame. You lack of understanding of how you mate a boat and a motor together is giving the folks who made the motor a bad name because you still imply that it's not a good product

No - I have no affiliation with Tohatsu at all, though I do have a Tohatsu 6 HP on my rigid dink. It' a small fiberglass dink and the motor is really a bit too much for it . . . . I have to be really careful not to overdo things, but when I open it up in a straight line on calm water, it will FLY!! It is amazing that they can get so much power into a 55 pound package and yet make it run all day on a 3 gallon tank of fuel. Truthfully, it is more a dink motor than a sailboat auxiliary *because* the gearing in the foot is too high (2.15:1). It's designed to turn a small propeller fast, whereas good workboat outboards turn a larger propeller slowly and that's more efficient on any boat which cannot plane.

If you were still using this boat/motor, I would advise you to take the prop in and have about half an inch of pitch taken out of it. This would give you a few more RPM's and a bit more power, since you would then be running it closer to the powerband of the engine and your performance would be improved all around

BUT understand that any outboard on any vessel which is RPM limited because the prop is so overpitched that the engine can not reach it's rated RPM is never going to perform very well . . . . and it's sure not the fault of the company who made the motor, the dealer who sold it, the government who mandates how we measure horsepower - It's just not a good match for the boat it's on and the buyer needs to understand that and take steps to correct it . . . . not just go online and bitch about it

Don
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Last edited by alphacarina; 01-26-2014 at 12:33 PM.
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  #217  
Old 01-26-2014
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Re: Nissan / Tohatsu 6h 4 stroke

Have followed this thread off & on. Wondering if the OP did a compression test for possible broken/faulty rings or valves, and if it is timed correctly? Maybe a small kink somewhere in the fuel lines, restricting fuel flow?

About a year or so ago I bought a new 6HP 4 stroke Tohatsu. Ran perfectly right out of the box. Took me a while to refine the starting drill, but it was basically "just follow the instructions" to the letter.

I put the lowest pitched prop on it Tohatsu offered to slow down the trolling speed and picked up .5 mph in the process, from 10 mph to 10.5 mph on a heavy 12 foot aluminum Jon boat, about 700 lbs, loaded, at 6,000 feet elevation.

Don't know what RPM it is running, but I haven't hit the rev limiter yet. Sounds like it is turning up pretty well? Sounds like the proper prop may be the answer, assuming the power head is healthy?

Paul T
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  #218  
Old 01-26-2014
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Re: Nissan / Tohatsu 6h 4 stroke

without reading the whole thread and being unbiased this sentence... I found that not all outboards are created equally...

thankfully not on my dime for the sailing club I ran we bought a brand new suzuki 8hp outboard...2 stroke

we broke it in perfectly...right prop and pitch for intended purpose(carrying 6 kids or so to and from boats) and basically this thing never developed real power...it felt like a 4hp

btw I love tohatsus, ESPECIALLY THE OLDER ONES as they are awesome, they remind me of yamaha enduro outboards

not 4 stroke so take my thoughts with a grain of salt

however EVERYTHING stated about pitch and purpose and intended runnig rpms is true

outboard props are cheap as hell

if it where me id put a solas 4 blade on and call it a day

no sense whining

the deal is done

jajaja

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  #219  
Old 01-26-2014
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Re: Nissan / Tohatsu 6h 4 stroke

I understand where your coming from about the pitch and prop matching the usage. I understood it before I ever bought the engine. My point is that this is a small engine that tohatsu makes the full line of props for and using any one of "their props) that fit that engine it wont make its rated rpm and there fore isn't making its rated HP based on their specs. The only time I have ever seen it make rated rpm was in neutral. Nobody makes a prop with a lower pitch or at at least at the time I was going through this they didn't. So if that engine does actually make 6 hp . it is a theoretical 6hp that has no relation to any real world usage. I've never said it doesn't work.. just that it doesn't work to it's own performance specs in the real world.


To the gentleman asking about compression. I'm pretty sure it was fine. We tested another engine of the same model and it gave the same test results within about 10 rpm. The engine cranked like a champ and other than power we never had an issue. If we I hadn't had a drop in performance on the boat and then tested the engine we would have never known there was a problem.
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  #220  
Old 01-26-2014
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Re: Nissan / Tohatsu 6h 4 stroke

I paid cash it is still new a 6hp long shaft no alternator. I have know idea how good or bad its RPM is. If they have a recall I would like to know. I would say so far it has made me happy.
It moves the boat back up on the trailer. This is its main job. The boat is a sailboat the motor is an option I can replace. It seems to be the best buy for the money right now. It has the long shaft. Everyone said this is needed for safety. It has forward reverse. It has less pollution than a 2 stroke.
I wish it was lighter. I wish it did not use any gas and would need no upkeep. I should have thought about a 2hp ? Seems like the 6 hp did not weigh any more than the 4hp and this one has forward and reverse. I am not sure my wife would do ok with spin the engine for reverse. I am not sure a 2hp would be safe for a Catalina-22 I could use oars or a yuloh but this is what I did an where I am.
Kind Regards, Lou
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