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  #71  
Old 10-04-2007
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<i>I exclude in this the prop that internetoutboards.com has since you can not get it through tohatsu. I am still very interested in what it would do for the engine and boat though.</i><P>Audeojude<p>As are many of us. Perhaps in the mean time you might find a friend with a smaller sailing boat or even a dinghy, i.e. how low do we have to go to get WOT on one of these critters? I was going to jump into TohatsuGuru about the useless steering adjustment; however, after reading page 19 of my manual......"<i>Note: The steering adjustment screw is used to adjust the friction load, but not to fix the steering".</i> <p> I know it was a feature that caught my eye when doing my research. I said to myself, "Cool, I can lock it down and steer with the rudder". NOT. So if any of you prospective buyers are looking that way, it doesn't work. Oh well, I got another 2 and 1/2 years of warranty, and I like the color and the alternator keeps up with my laptop, vhf, and lights. As I mentioned earlier, next week when I get this boat down my ramp, and wet again, I am starting out with an older Mariner 9.9 20inch shaft, that belongs to my brother in law. I can also rent a 9.9 four stroke, but I'm a bit leary of that since I would probably have to upgrade the bracket, but then again, it would only be for a few minutes, and I could put a good rope around it for safety. Anyhow, keep us informed on the results of that prop. Thanks for the thread. Like you mentioned.. I wish it had been here about 7 months ago.
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  #72  
Old 10-04-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger View Post
I exclude in this the prop that internetoutboards.com has since you can not get it through tohatsu. I am still very interested in what it would do for the engine and boat though.Audeojude
As are many of us. Perhaps in the mean time you might find a friend with a smaller sailing boat or even a dinghy, i.e. how low do we have to go to get WOT on one of these critters? I was going to jump into TohatsuGuru about the useless steering adjustment; however, after reading page 19 of my manual......"Note: The steering adjustment screw is used to adjust the friction load, but not to fix the steering".
I know it was a feature that caught my eye when doing my research. I said to myself, "Cool, I can lock it down and steer with the rudder". NOT. So if any of you prospective buyers are looking that way, it doesn't work. Oh well, I got another 2 and 1/2 years of warranty, and I like the color and the alternator keeps up with my laptop, vhf, and lights. As I mentioned earlier, next week when I get this boat down my ramp, and wet again, I am starting out with an older Mariner 9.9 20inch shaft, that belongs to my brother in law. I can also rent a 9.9 four stroke, but I'm a bit leary of that since I would probably have to upgrade the bracket, but then again, it would only be for a few minutes, and I could put a good rope around it for safety. Anyhow, keep us informed on the results of that prop. Thanks for the thread. Like you mentioned.. I wish it had been here about 7 months ago.

My impression is that tohatsu built a dingy motor and said.. hey we can put a longer shaft on it and market the same engine to small sailboats. What they don't seem to have done is paid attention to detail. Either a different gearing for the longshafts maybe or a different prop specifically designed for displacement boats. Or both! Also the tension adjuster is an irritating issue. For a dingy it is not necessary but as an auxiliary engine it needs to be able to lock in position. I think with minimal engineering changes this engine could come very close to performing to the expectations that have been set for it by the manufacture. Unfortunately for now it doesn't.



I wanted to test this engine on a smaller boat or dingy but the opportunity has not come up. My boat is the smallest boat bar one in the local sailing club. The other boat is the same size as mine. Only one person I know has a dingy on their boat that we could have tried it on and they always seemed to be busy when we had talked about doing it.
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  #73  
Old 10-04-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audeojude View Post
I wanted to test this engine on a smaller boat or dingy but the opportunity has not come up. My boat is the smallest boat bar one in the local sailing club. The other boat is the same size as mine. Only one person I know has a dingy on their boat that we could have tried it on and they always seemed to be busy when we had talked about doing it.
Well, the 6hp will not get my 9 ft AB RIB up on a plane, and I have the 105 lb 'light' RIB. I am not impressed with the engine.
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  #74  
Old 10-04-2007
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Originally Posted by max-on View Post
Well, the 6hp will not get my 9 ft AB RIB up on a plane, and I have the 105 lb 'light' RIB. I am not impressed with the engine.

How many people on board? an older 5HP 2 stroke nissan will get an 8' roll up avon on plane, but only with 1 adult on board, but not 2.

Last edited by hazmat17; 10-04-2007 at 04:05 PM.
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  #75  
Old 10-04-2007
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2 stroke vs 4 stroke? anyone remember the RD350 yamaha? wind that up against a CB350 honda.
Better yet, the H2-750 Kaw, vs the CB750 honda.
Yea, but the H-2 would be sucking the clean exhaust of a modern 600 cc sport bike.

I went to the web site and noticed that the 6hp is the most powerfull of the 7.5 cu.in. engines. My guess is that they made the increase from 4 to 6 hp by changing the cam and carb. The changes prolly moved the torque curve up to a rpm you cant get to. Kinna like the fella that stated that his boat did something and then took off faster than ever before. Prolly just unloaded the motor just enuff to allow it to get into the powerband and once up there it stayed.
I think the right prop may let the motor get over the hump and may even help it run smother at a higher rpm.
I might even invest in some race gas (VP-C12) to check the jetting. I know it is ledded but it is a blended gas and very consistent.
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  #76  
Old 10-04-2007
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Not in order:

Diesel outboards flopped in the U.S because of cost and weight. They were finally killed off here because of pollution and complete lack of demand.

Hp is Hp...The key is that the Hp rating is at a specific RPM rating. Four-stroke engines cant wind up the RPM’s the way a 2-stroke can, hence the lack of power of a 4-stroke until you reach a point somewhere between mid RPM’s and WOT.

High thrust, Big Foot, etc, models are for people who, for whatever reason are getting an engine that is too small for their application. Sometimes the reason is semi valid such as a wallowing pig of a boat that needs a light weight engine for balance, but has to have the push of a larger engine. Sometimes, such as a pontoon boat, a HT of BF is a sales gimmick to rip the customer off by selling them too small of an engine.

What a manufacturer targets and what a dealer targets are buyers. The average sailboat 3000 lbs and under are almost always a perfect fit for any brand 4-stk 6 hp and 2500 lbs are usually well powered with a 4-stk 5 hp and usually with the stock propeller that comes on the long shaft models. But, usually is not always and in this case the stock prop is not the best choice.

Expectations of performance of a product swing both ways. I swear to all that this rather well publicized case is a very rare exception to the usually deliriously happy Tohatsuphiles that routinely praise the joy of owning a Tohatsu 6 ultra long. (Did I over do it a little there?)

I disagree strongly with bashing any brand of anything unless there is a problem with the product and the responsible party didn't take responsibility for it. There was nothing wrong with the engine. It is the specific application that is the issue and that is/was/will always be the buyer's responsibility. Is it a grey area? For the average consumer I have to say that it unfortunately is. But borderline application issues really shouldn’t be blamed on the product. I understand the irritation, but it really should be directed to the guy in the mirror. I say that with no malice at all. I really believe that this entire occurrence was totally unnecessary and ill-conceived.

How much hand holding do people require when making a purchase? I personally buy everything that I can off the net to save money. But, it's not for everyone. If there is the slightest doubt about a product then people shouldn’t buy it. Do your research and then make an informed buy. Then you live with it. We are back to the personal responsibility thing again and that is something that people either get or don't.

This model engine on this particular boat was a mismatch. At best it was a borderline selection if the boat weighs 3000 lbs. For any boat over 3000 lbs it is a huge mistake. But, I understand why the six was chosen. Based on the performance of the 4 it seemed reasonable a 6 would be better. But hp is only one factor used in selecting an engine. So while audeojude's selection was based on his best judgment it was clearly not the perfect choice. Was it a bad choice? No, of course not. The performance of the 4 is freakishly good and the 6 is slightly less than perfect. If the 4 had been a 5 hp one cylinder this whole thing wouldn't be an issue because the six would have out performed it.

Bottom line

Engine does not live up to customers self created expectation ( Show me anywhere that Tohatsu or any of it's dealers recommended this engine for this application) + Consumer frustrated with probable inadequate response from selling dealer = Rant. Not a rant with any real malice or done with vicious intent. But, still a rant that shouldn’t have been made in this case.

Oh, the thing about the tension adjustment is kind of true. But, there is a reason that it is designed the way it is. Liability. The engines used to have a tension adjustment that you could tighten down hard enough to where it normally would not move. But, some dork somewhere got in an accident because he couldn’t turn the engine in an emergency and they redesigned it. I'll take a look at one and see if we can come up with a place to drop a hole so it can be pinned by sailors.

Last edited by TohatsuGuru; 10-04-2007 at 04:42 PM.
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  #77  
Old 10-04-2007
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Max-on, I have a AB320Vs Rib that weighs 180 lbs that will plane with a 4-stroke 5 Tohatsu and my 200 lbs. Either that 6 has a problem, your sitting too far in the stern or the boat has so much weight in it that it is sitting too low in the water.

Also, other than emergency use it is a huge mistake to try to use a long or ultralong shaft engine on a short shaft boat. Too much drag and water will spray in over the stern.
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Old 10-04-2007
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Wallowing Pig

High thrust, Big Foot, etc, models are for people who, for whatever reason are getting an engine that is too small for their application. Sometimes the reason is semi valid such as a wallowing pig of a boat that needs a light weight engine for balance, but has to have the push of a larger engine. Sometimes, such as a pontoon boat, a HT of BF is a sales gimmick to rip the customer off by selling them too small of an engine.

What a manufacturer targets and what a dealer targets are buyers. The average sailboat 3000 lbs and under are almost always a perfect fit for any brand 4-stk 6 hp and 2500 lbs are usually well powered with a 4-stk 5 hp and usually with the stock propeller that comes on the long shaft models. But, usually is not always and in this case the stock prop is not the best choice.


Well the High Thrust which I have is the 9.9 Yamaha Long Shaft. I guess my Catalina 27 is a wallowing pig of a boat that needs the engine for balance, NOT. The reason I got the High Thrust is I don't need high speed I need thrust to move 7000 plus pounds of wallowing pig. The average sailboat at my marina is 10000 plus pounds by the way. THe Yamaha High Thrust is a perfect match for my wallowing pig of a boat as it reaches hull speed against current with throttle left over.
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  #79  
Old 10-04-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TohatsuGuru View Post
Expectations of performance of a product swing both ways. I swear to all that this rather well publicized case is a very rare exception to the usually deliriously happy Tohatsuphiles that routinely praise the joy of owning a Tohatsu 6 ultra long. (Did I over do it a little there?)
I'm sure that there are people that are happy with the engine. I will praise the ultra long shaft. I love what the extra 5 inchs of shaft does for keeping the prop under water when in swells and wakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TohatsuGuru View Post
I disagree strongly with bashing any brand of anything unless there is a problem with the product and the responsible party didn't take responsibility for it. There was nothing wrong with the engine. It is the specific application that is the issue and that is/was/will always be the buyer's responsibility. Is it a grey area? For the average consumer I have to say that it unfortunately is. But borderline application issues really shouldn’t be blamed on the product. I understand the irritation, but it really should be directed to the guy in the mirror. I say that with no malice at all. I really believe that this entire occurrence was totally unnecessary and ill-conceived.

How much hand holding do people require when making a purchase? I personally buy everything that I can off the net to save money. But, it's not for everyone. If there is the slightest doubt about a product then people shouldn’t buy it. Do your research and then make an informed buy. Then you live with it. We are back to the personal responsibility thing again and that is something that people either get or don't.
I am going to respect tohatsugurus loyalty and beliefs in this. I believe slightly differently but then I come at it from a different place than he is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TohatsuGuru View Post
Bottom line
Engine does not live up to customers self created expectation ( Show me anywhere that Tohatsu or any of it's dealers recommended this engine for this application) + Consumer frustrated with probable inadequate response from selling dealer = Rant. Not a rant with any real malice or done with vicious intent. But, still a rant that shouldn’t have been made in this case.
I agree and disagree at the same time.

1. I was told it would be more powerful than a 4hp 2 stroke

2. i was not told that it would be the be all end all for my particular boat.
the language used was basically that the dealer wasn't going to recommend the engine for any specific use as they didn't want it coming back to bite them if they did say it would work. Of the multiple people that i spoke with prior to purchase at different places this seemed to be a fairly standard attitude. In summary "that its a great product put we dont promise it will work for your boat." your boat being pretty much any boat. I have problems with this attitude selling a product but I can understand that with boats there are a lot of variables and unless the dealer is very experienced with all the products he sells and applying them to different products then he wouldn't want to say anything one way or the other.

3. If the engine would run at full rpm and my boat was still slow, I wouldn't think I had much of an argument for it being unsuited to my boat. But on the water the engine can not generate enough power to turn at nominal RPM. If it could the prop size calculators that I have used indicate it would exactly meet my pre sales expectations. My boat is moving at the calculated speeds given how fast the engine is currently running. Given this if it would run at full rpm I would expect to see the performance I thought i would get pre purchase.

4. my direct irritation with the dealer and the service center are over customer service issues and not directly related to the performance of the engine. I will take a hit for letting my irritation with the way I was treated by them fall over onto the whole situation.

My apologies.



ok I think there are enough posts from me saying how the engine isn't powerful enough. I'm not going to respond to any more debate on if it is or isnt right that I have said anything, nor am I going to defend my position on why it doesn't run to full performance for me.. been there done that go back and read my past responses and the plentiful rebuttals to them. We all already have the uncomfortable tee shirts.



Instead lets get some others to step up to the plate and give their experiences with these engines. No just saying I don't like it. Details. If you have one and don't feel happy with it then take it out and measure it and give us numbers.

If we are going to make this useful then do like I did. Get speed over water information. static thrust tests if you have the equipment. What kind of boat is it on. How long and heavy is the boat. GPS speed if you cant generate over water speeds. RPM statistics for your applications would be absolutely awesome as that seems to be where I have run into discrepancies. If you have a dingy and and get it WOT does it get to nominal 5500 rpm or max rpm 6000? What about someone with a little 1000 lb sail boat or a 1500 lb or a 2000 lb boat. I purchased a nice inductive tachometer/hour meter from sendec.com for 40 bucks.. it works great and is totally sealed for marine environments

http://www.sendec-products.com/content/view/143/159/ roughly $40 for model 806-100-0222 Surface Mount “H”Hour Meter records up to 9,999.9 Hrs. in 0.1 Hrs. increments. Tachometer records up to 8,000 rpm with 1:1 (spark:rpm) firing pattern, or 4,000 rpm with 2:1 (spark:rpm) firing pattern. with a Resolution of 10 rpm. They told me with this engine it would read 1:1 on the phone when I spoke with them.




Tohatsuguru has already sent me private email indicating that they are really interested in sending me the max thrust 6 pitch prop to test. My hat is off to him and internetoutboardsales.com for following up on something that doesn't directly involve them other than that they also sell tohatsu engines.

Also his idea of looking for an easy modification to affect a true locking mechanism for the engine is another great idea.

I had thought about mounting a fixture on my boat to the side of the engine and taking a aluminum or stainless rod with the ends bent at 90% that could drop down through one of the holes at the base of the engine and the other end fixed on the boat. An adjuster that allowed you to lengthen or shorten the length at will would help trim engine angle at different speeds. Not sure my description gives a good picture of what I mean.

Last edited by audeojude; 10-04-2007 at 06:15 PM.
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  #80  
Old 10-04-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catalina274me View Post
Well the High Thrust which I have is the 9.9 Yamaha Long Shaft. I guess my Catalina 27 is a wallowing pig of a boat that needs the engine for balance, NOT. The reason I got the High Thrust is I don't need high speed I need thrust to move 7000 plus pounds of wallowing pig. The average sailboat at my marina is 10000 plus pounds by the way. THe Yamaha High Thrust is a perfect match for my wallowing pig of a boat as it reaches hull speed against current with throttle left over.
So give us some performance data.. boat weight, speed and throttle position at the least. rpm if you can.
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