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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Engines > Outboard
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  #81  
Old 10-04-2007
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cardiacpaul is a jewel in the rough cardiacpaul is a jewel in the rough cardiacpaul is a jewel in the rough
you sound like someone that is bitter over the loss of business to online merchants.

No, not at all. I'm waiting for the day someone can survey a boat from a remote location.

What chaps my butt to no end are people that have "done their research" then popped out and purchased something and then they're not in some state of orgasmic bliss.

You said you have little or no experience with outboards and you did your due diligence over the 'net. Well, what the heck did you expect?
You want 6HP, Take off the prop and lower end, remove the charging system and air cleaner, drop it in a barrel and fire it up, I'll bet you get 6HP at WOT.
HP is measured at the crank. not the prop.

Yes i did make the decision to purchase this engine after extensive research into it based on the available information.
There is now a lot more available information for people to make up their minds on this because I have opened my mouth and said something.

Yup, from a guy with admittedly no experience. good job, gives you a lot of street cred in my book.

I wish someone else had started a conversation like this on the net prior to me.

Me too, someone that had actually asked the right questions and was willing to listen to the responses given.

I am moving on but why should I pretend to be happy about a product that didn't meet my expectations.

Aye, they were YOUR expectations weren't they?

i was not told that it would be the be all end all for my particular boat.

Thats not suprising.

the language used was basically that the dealer wasn't going to recommend the engine for any specific use as they didn't want it coming back to bite them if they did say it would work. Of the multiple people that i spoke with prior to purchase at different places this seemed to be a fairly standard attitude. In summary "that its a great product put we dont promise it will work for your boat." your boat being pretty much any boat. I have problems with this attitude selling a product but I can understand that with boats there are a lot of variables and unless the dealer is very experienced with all the products he sells and applying them to different products then he wouldn't want to say anything one way or the other.

What part of we dont promise it will work for your boat did you not really want to listen to?

Did you ever buy a set of tires for your car? Did you realize that the OEM tires, while black and round may not be the "perfect" tires for your vehicle? The tires were selected by the OEM for just about one reason. Price. Shudder at that thought. Still, many people stroll into Sears and want "what came on the car". Ok, bub, thats what you get.
If I'm "tireguy" and you want tires, I'm shutting up and giving you tires.
And thats what you got. You got what you asked for.

NO ONE selling a product is going to warranty the suitability.
Why? People are lawsuit crazy idiots. I can even imagine the "bait and switch" argument being made.

"Your honor, I wanted to buy a chrome plated tittlator valve, and the sales guy said I really didn't want that one, that I needed the brass plated one, it cost me a hunnert dollars more and I didn't need that one. He lied to me and I want half a million. "

Now, if you'd gone to a brick and mortor, ("SOME" brick and mortars) You might have been able to talk to sales wonks, service people, maybe even picked up some spec's.

Did you ask anyone on here, or SA, or any of the numerous boards their thoughts BEFORE you saved a couple of hundred bucks? (someone other than an internet front?) Pull up your biggirl panties and be flippin' happy that you have a new to you motor, Hey, look at all of the money you saved... other than all of the test junk you bought just to prove that it wasn't doing what you were "told" it would do.

Or, list it on Ebay... of course, now that you've went on your diatribe as to the relative "worth" of this underperforming motor, good luck with that.
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Last edited by cardiacpaul; 10-04-2007 at 06:59 PM.
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  #82  
Old 10-04-2007
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Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust

Quote:
Originally Posted by audeojude View Post
So give us some performance data.. boat weight, speed and throttle position at the least. rpm if you can.
As I don't have a tach I can only give throttle position. My boat is a 1974 Catalina, the original brochure says it weighs 6850 pounds. It now weighs more than 7000 pounds as it has had item installed such as the motor, holding tanks, safety gear, sails, rigging, etc...
At a cruise speed of 6.5 knots it is about half throttle. I use about a quart an hour of fuel. I do use meduim grade pump gas and use Mobile 1 synthetic oil in the motor. My theorhetical hull speed is 6.25 knots. I have done past hull speed of 8.5 knots burrying the transom and burning fuel at 3/4 gallon per hour. Not got to do that as I had to see what this motor could do. I am in the Columbia River which can have a 3 knot current on ebb. This motor is a bit heavy (117 pounds) I think. I don't have the manual here in front of me but it is the 2000 year Model. Most every sailor here agrees that the Yamaha is probably the quietest motor for given HP. At idle when I am at the pumpout station and someone walks by they cannot believe it is runnung except for the pee stream of cooling water. Can't say enough about this model. Am very happy with the performance. Reverse also has plenty of thrust. Somewhere I read that this is for a displacement hull as the top speed would only be about 13 knots on a planning hull, like a dingy. It does have electric start and charging of 10 watts at WOT.
Hope this helps future buyers of outboards for sailboats of this size. The transom cutout was enlarged an beefed up with aluminum plate and backing plates because the boat was made when 4 strokes where not popular or even made.
Ed
S/V Romance
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  #83  
Old 10-04-2007
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Amused Not Abused

Quote:
Originally Posted by TohatsuGuru View Post
Not in order:

Diesel outboards flopped in the U.S because of cost and weight. They were finally killed off here because of pollution and complete lack of demand.

Hp is Hp...The key is that the Hp rating is at a specific RPM rating. Four-stroke engines cant wind up the RPM’s the way a 2-stroke can, hence the lack of power of a 4-stroke until you reach a point somewhere between mid RPM’s and WOT.

High thrust, Big Foot, etc, models are for people who, for whatever reason are getting an engine that is too small for their application. Sometimes the reason is semi valid such as a wallowing pig of a boat that needs a light weight engine for balance, but has to have the push of a larger engine. Sometimes, such as a pontoon boat, a HT of BF is a sales gimmick to rip the customer off by selling them too small of an engine.

What a manufacturer targets and what a dealer targets are buyers. The average sailboat 3000 lbs and under are almost always a perfect fit for any brand 4-stk 6 hp and 2500 lbs are usually well powered with a 4-stk 5 hp and usually with the stock propeller that comes on the long shaft models. But, usually is not always and in this case the stock prop is not the best choice.

Expectations of performance of a product swing both ways. I swear to all that this rather well publicized case is a very rare exception to the usually deliriously happy Tohatsuphiles that routinely praise the joy of owning a Tohatsu 6 ultra long. (Did I over do it a little there?)

I disagree strongly with bashing any brand of anything unless there is a problem with the product and the responsible party didn't take responsibility for it. There was nothing wrong with the engine. It is the specific application that is the issue and that is/was/will always be the buyer's responsibility. Is it a grey area? For the average consumer I have to say that it unfortunately is. But borderline application issues really shouldn’t be blamed on the product. I understand the irritation, but it really should be directed to the guy in the mirror. I say that with no malice at all. I really believe that this entire occurrence was totally unnecessary and ill-conceived.

How much hand holding do people require when making a purchase? I personally buy everything that I can off the net to save money. But, it's not for everyone. If there is the slightest doubt about a product then people shouldn’t buy it. Do your research and then make an informed buy. Then you live with it. We are back to the personal responsibility thing again and that is something that people either get or don't.

This model engine on this particular boat was a mismatch. At best it was a borderline selection if the boat weighs 3000 lbs. For any boat over 3000 lbs it is a huge mistake. But, I understand why the six was chosen. Based on the performance of the 4 it seemed reasonable a 6 would be better. But hp is only one factor used in selecting an engine. So while audeojude's selection was based on his best judgment it was clearly not the perfect choice. Was it a bad choice? No, of course not. The performance of the 4 is freakishly good and the 6 is slightly less than perfect. If the 4 had been a 5 hp one cylinder this whole thing wouldn't be an issue because the six would have out performed it.

Bottom line

Engine does not live up to customers self created expectation ( Show me anywhere that Tohatsu or any of it's dealers recommended this engine for this application) + Consumer frustrated with probable inadequate response from selling dealer = Rant. Not a rant with any real malice or done with vicious intent. But, still a rant that shouldn’t have been made in this case.

Oh!
TG how soon can you deliver p/n 399b645121m to a patient, amused and paying NSF6A2S consumer down in NAPLES ?
also is it possible for you to locate info on my engine regarding max allowable horsepower (be it manifold pressure or throttle position) relative to rpm at different selected rpm settings? such as 5000 rpm ,4500 rpm ,4000rpm 3500 rpm and 3000 rpm...PLEASE.
Thank You
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  #84  
Old 10-04-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TohatsuGuru View Post
Max-on, I have a AB320Vs Rib that weighs 180 lbs that will plane with a 4-stroke 5 Tohatsu and my 200 lbs. Either that 6 has a problem, your sitting too far in the stern or the boat has so much weight in it that it is sitting too low in the water.

Also, other than emergency use it is a huge mistake to try to use a long or ultralong shaft engine on a short shaft boat. Too much drag and water will spray in over the stern.
It is a short-shaft model. Maybe, there is something wrong? The RIB is 105 lbs and I'm 165 lbs, sitting mid-boat, will not plane, frankly, it's slow. It has been like that since we purchased it. Only one time, we (so add another 125 lbs) were on on flat, running the boat for about a half-hour WOT a good portion of the time, and all of a sudden at WOT the RPMs increased and the boat took-off, like a 6hp should. Why would that happen, and not do it any other time?
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  #85  
Old 10-05-2007
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The Catalina 27 is the perfect example of whence I speak. The boat calls for a minimum of 15hp. But, using the Yamster HT9.9 you can make up for being grossly underpowered. It's a good solution. This is probably a good time to add that I know of no outboard that was designed from the bottom up as an auxilary. All brands that offer a gear reduction model took a standard model outboard and then altered it in some way. The HT 9.9 is a good example of a highly modified model that provides a single purpose use. For anything other than pushing a heavy load it is useless. But if that's all its going to be used for it is a solid performer. The Tohatsu 6UL is at the other end of the spectrum offering a minimum alteration of a standard 6 hp with only two modifications: An extra long shaft and a battery charging system.

The "Pig Prop" was in stock this morning with3 being available. We are in Tampa so delivery is next business day. I've never had anyone ask what the pressure was at any RPM before I'll check and see what specs they have available or you could call Tohatsu direct at 972-323-6003 and have one of their tech support guys tell you anything you want to know.

That 6 sounds like a fuel or ignition issue. More likely a fuel issue. Could be as simple as a piece of trash floating around in the carb that sometimes blocks a jet. Fuel related problems are about 90% of all service failures on engines in the marine world. Regardless, the engine has a real problem and you should run it by a service center. Let me know where you are and I will direct you to the best of the dealers in your area.
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  #86  
Old 10-05-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TohatsuGuru View Post
That 6 sounds like a fuel or ignition issue. More likely a fuel issue. Could be as simple as a piece of trash floating around in the carb that sometimes blocks a jet. Fuel related problems are about 90% of all service failures on engines in the marine world. Regardless, the engine has a real problem and you should run it by a service center. Let me know where you are and I will direct you to the best of the dealers in your area.
Thanks, Warwick, Rhode Island.
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  #87  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger View Post
<i> Personally, I think this prop should have been standard on a 6hp, ultralong, alternator, etc. Let us face it, that is almost a "one trick pony". Targetted to 20 to 25 foot sailing auxilaries with outboard power.
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I have a 20 year old Yamaha 9.9 four-stroke on my 25.5' Hunter, and get hull speed at about 2/3 throttle.
Take donations from everyone to pay for your experiment (which is valuable, at least to me) and if the prop doesn't get you what you want, sell it and buy a 20 year old Yamaha 9.9 for a grand or less.

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  #88  
Old 10-05-2007
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Of the four dealers that are within ten miles of you a company called Steve's Marine would be the best choice. Their telephone number is 401-245-7673. The other three are closer, but........Say no evil
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  #89  
Old 10-05-2007
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Oil pressure on a 6 at 1300 RPM is .03 MPa and at 5000 RPM is .15MPa.
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  #90  
Old 10-05-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elacruze View Post
I have a 20 year old Yamaha 9.9 four-stroke on my 25.5' Hunter, and get hull speed at about 2/3 throttle.
Take donations from everyone to pay for your experiment (which is valuable, at least to me) and if the prop doesn't get you what you want, sell it and buy a 20 year old Yamaha 9.9 for a grand or less.

Eric
rofl all donations can go to scott@scottcarle.com on paypal

that would be funny.. I just hope that all this helps other people looking to power smaller outboard driven sailboats make a good decision for themselves. I didn't have good information available to me when I did my purchase.
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