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post #21 of 31 Old 03-22-2012
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Re: Submarine versus freighter

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And the last thing these young men need is someone telling fairy tales about submarines cowboy-ing around fishing boats operating without regard for their own safety or the fishermen and their equipment, and stretching the tales to include operational parameters for the submarine that exceed the engineered capabilities of any submarine in the world.

Good points. My picture posted needed no embellishment


Thank god for our subs and the men and women on them

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post #22 of 31 Old 03-22-2012
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Re: Submarine versus freighter

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Originally Posted by fryewe View Post
20 knots at 20 yards off your beam with nothing but the scope up...and looking at you? Fascinating. Were they lucky, or did they do that on purpose, showing off their incredible shiphandling skills?

I have been monitoring this thread for a few days without commenting, but feel obliged to comment today.

If fascinates me that folks will mill about an incident like this, an incident they have minimal information about, and draw conclusions that have little basis in fact. Others relate stories that are preposterous. Some describe routine and normal events as if they are incredibly unnerving, simply because the experience was abnormal to them.

The events surrounding Kentucky's close encounter in the SofJdeF are unclear, notwithstanding the story published in Navy Times. We don't know exactly what happened or why, but we do know that the practices that are in place for preventing collisions in the strait worked. What is likely is that Kentucky's navigation, piloting, and contact coordination team lost the picture, and rather than controlling the situation, were obliged to use the assistance of the Seattle Traffic or Tofino Traffic to alert them to a hazard. Unacceptable for a navy ship or submarine.

The article doesn't state that the CO was relieved because of this incident. He was relieved, but any relief would occur after a complete review of the incident, to include all factors that may have contributed such as training and proficiency of the crew, watchstanding practices, standing orders, actions of all leaders on watch and in the watch organization (on and off watch). There may have been other factors that weighed on the decision to relieve him, and the total weight of those factors would drive the decision.

US submarine officers and crew (and the officers and crews of our allies) are remarkable young men. The demands on them, personally and professionally, couldn't be met by the vast majority of folks. The duty requires a facility for math and science in order to learn complex engineering and war fighting concepts. The physical demands are significant with continual drills and practice in every area required to operate, fight, and stay safe. They take their responsibilities very seriously, and work longer hours than most of you can imagine for months at a time, increasing their knowledge, skills, and efficiency in order to minimize risk and optimize operational effectiveness. Though some people may not think submarine operations are important, most of these men do, and they do it because they think it is important, and that is important that it is done right.

Operations are planned in great detail. Operational areas are well coordinated within the US Navy and between our navy and our allies. Submerged operations are necessarily hazardous, but operations at the boundary between deep and surfaced, and moving into and out of that boundary involve even greater hazards because surface obstacles are included. The primary sensor while at periscope depth is the periscope, and it takes a lot of training to use it effectively. (Imagine that you had to sail your ship with one eye closed and the other looking through a paper towel tube.) Submarine commanders know this, and every man on each ship that is prudently operated knows it as well. Submarines operate submerged only when and where they are authorized to operate submerged.

I spent 34 years in the US Navy in submarine operations...15 on permanent assignment to various submarines and as an trainer, evaluator and inspector on at least 50 others. I have served with the submarine officers and men of 13 allied navies. With few exceptions, these people are the best of the best. Thousands of operational decisions are made every day...tens of thousands every week...hundreds of thousands every year. Most are great decisions. Most people never consider that large numbers of US submariners are at sea every day doing their duties with great result and minimal risk to themselves or others. However, very infrequently (but too often, of course) a key decision maker makes a bad decision that results in tragedy (Nisho Maru and Ehime Maru incidents). A bit more frequently, bad decisions are made that don't result in tragedy, but do result in a loss of confidence in submariners' abilities (this incident with Kentucky is one). What you can count on, though, is that this incident and all the attendant lessons have been broadly disseminated to every person who is serving or will soon serve on submarines to make sure that the experience of one ship can serve every ship to avoid similar events.

And the last thing these young men need is someone telling fairy tales about submarines cowboy-ing around fishing boats operating without regard for their own safety or the fishermen and their equipment, and stretching the tales to include operational parameters for the submarine that exceed the engineered capabilities of any submarine in the world.

Well, commander Fryewe, It sounds like you're calling me a liar.
First of all, let me say that I agree with you about the high class of men who serve in the military - not only submarine service but all branches of it.
I personally am a 100% disabled Vietnam Vet - ex-Army engineer.
I drove a bulldozer and a dump truck for a living over there when I was 18 - 19 years old. I'm 62 now.
I went to sea commercial fishing off the coast of Washington, Oregon, Calif., and Alaska in 1972 and I gave it up in '99 because of my health.
Now, if you think I was telling a 'fairy tale' about having a sub come by me with the periscope up 20 or 30 yards from my boat - you are sadly mistaken!
I dont care what you think - you are wrong......period!
I've seen subs come cruising through the troll fleet several times over the years I've fished off the "Prairie" (a bank approx 65 miles off Cape Flattery inside the 100 fath edge)
I can understand your standing up for your boys in blue but dont kid yourself into thinking that they are infallable! Whether these guys were doing this on purpose or by accident - who knows?
I'll certainly give them the benefit of the doubt.
As a fisherman, my job kept me at sea, usually in the same area for 5-7 days at a time, 2 days back to the dock to sell, re-provision and get back to work, May-October for 25 years. I doubt that you spent much more time at sea than I did!
So, you are entitled to your opinion. But I know what I saw!
Have a nice day....
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post #23 of 31 Old 03-22-2012
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Re: Submarine versus freighter

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Originally Posted by fryewe View Post
...the last thing these young men need is someone telling fairy tales about submarines cowboy-ing around fishing boats operating without regard for their own safety or the fishermen and their equipment...
Was
a fairy tale????

Never forget them. Do something to prevent it from happening again.
Charlotte Bacon, Daniel Barden, Rachel Davino, Olivia Josephine Gay, Ana M. Marquez-Greene, Dylan Hockley, Dawn Hochsprung, Madeleine F. Hsu, Catherine V. Hubbard, Chase Kowalski, Jesse Lewis, James Mattioli , Grace McDonnell, Anne Marie Murphy, Emilie Parker, Jack Pinto, Noah Pozner, Caroline Previdi, Jessica Rekos, Avielle Richman, Lauren Rousseau, Mary Sherlach, Victoria Soto, Benjamin Wheeler, Allison N. Wyatt

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post #24 of 31 Old 03-22-2012
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Re: Submarine versus freighter

MODS

Why has the way the "link" function works changed???????????????????????
cupper3 likes this.

Never forget them. Do something to prevent it from happening again.
Charlotte Bacon, Daniel Barden, Rachel Davino, Olivia Josephine Gay, Ana M. Marquez-Greene, Dylan Hockley, Dawn Hochsprung, Madeleine F. Hsu, Catherine V. Hubbard, Chase Kowalski, Jesse Lewis, James Mattioli , Grace McDonnell, Anne Marie Murphy, Emilie Parker, Jack Pinto, Noah Pozner, Caroline Previdi, Jessica Rekos, Avielle Richman, Lauren Rousseau, Mary Sherlach, Victoria Soto, Benjamin Wheeler, Allison N. Wyatt

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post #25 of 31 Old 03-22-2012
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Re: Submarine versus freighter

SBS,

I've noticed some wikipedia links are popping up as they did for you. Same thing happened to me the other day when I linked something from them. Could be wiki's issue frankly and how they allow links.

Marty

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post #26 of 31 Old 03-22-2012
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Re: Submarine versus freighter

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Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
SBS,

I've noticed some wikipedia links are popping up as they did for you. Same thing happened to me the other day when I linked something from them. Could be wiki's issue frankly and how they allow links.

Marty
Maybe. But, then why did the same link work differently earlier in the thread?

Never forget them. Do something to prevent it from happening again.
Charlotte Bacon, Daniel Barden, Rachel Davino, Olivia Josephine Gay, Ana M. Marquez-Greene, Dylan Hockley, Dawn Hochsprung, Madeleine F. Hsu, Catherine V. Hubbard, Chase Kowalski, Jesse Lewis, James Mattioli , Grace McDonnell, Anne Marie Murphy, Emilie Parker, Jack Pinto, Noah Pozner, Caroline Previdi, Jessica Rekos, Avielle Richman, Lauren Rousseau, Mary Sherlach, Victoria Soto, Benjamin Wheeler, Allison N. Wyatt
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post #27 of 31 Old 03-22-2012
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Re: Submarine versus freighter

Not sure, it may be the NEW wiki version vs the old one is still linking to the old system at wiki.......then again, it could be an updated version of SN that is doing this. But other links are not an issue as the wiki ones are.

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Re: Submarine versus freighter

being as we are disCUSSing military boats to a degree. Anyone want to swag a "I" did this right or wrong.......

Last year I took off for the SJ's from Edmonds, only to spot a carrier coming down Admiralty inlet towards me. Not knowing if it was the Everett or Bremerton carrier, I quite the roughly NW heading directly towards what turns out to be the Abe Lincoln. I went from NW to north to the south side of whidbey, parallel to the know N/S ship lane, but I did not know where nor is it marked going to Everett. But figured I would be 90 to this lane. Eventually the Abe turned 90 towards me, I did pass in front, probably closer than they and I wanted. only to have the southern escort come towards me until I was in front, then they went on towards another that was getting way closer than I was, or planned to be. Then turned back to a NW heading once a 1/4 mile or so to the north of Abe.

Any thoughts good or bad? A former navy person figured I was photo'd, Id'd from the tower etc.......not that that made me feel good. but I am sure they did not want me near them any more than I wanted to be near them!

Marty

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post #29 of 31 Old 03-22-2012
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Re: Submarine versus freighter

For SbS,

In my post, I didn't try to gloss over major errors, or call the Ehime Maru event a fairy tale. I think my comments "...very infrequently (but too often, of course) a key decision maker makes a bad decision that results in tragedy (Nisho Maru and Ehime Maru incidents). A bit more frequently, bad decisions are made that don't result in tragedy, but do result in a loss of confidence in submariners' abilities (this incident with Kentucky is one"...says it all. You are obviously aware of the Ehime Maru incident, and can look up the Nisho Maru incident if you are so inclined. It's another case of poor decisionmaking and seamanship that resulted in loss of life. I don't take umbrage when these incidents are brought up as shortcomings. They are god-awful events that needn't have occurred had better judgement prevailed.

And for Gooey,

Risks are attendant to every enterprise. And errors in judgement add to the risks. Zipping around a fishing fleet at periscope depth isn't an error in judgement...it's insanity. In addition, subs are not engineered to operate at periscope depth at the speed indicated in your post, and if they were try to, they would significantly damage very expensive and operationally vital equipment. I don't doubt that you may have seen a periscope or other mast of a submarine while operating west of the WA and BC coasts. But to embellish the story with absurd exaggerations turns your story from an anecdote to a fairy tale. I didn't call you a liar, but you did admit to being a fisherman. I guess I should have just measured your story in the same way I measure the one that got away...
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post #30 of 31 Old 03-23-2012
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Re: Submarine versus freighter

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Originally Posted by fryewe View Post
For SbS,

In my post, I didn't try to gloss over major errors, or call the Ehime Maru event a fairy tale. I think my comments "...very infrequently (but too often, of course) a key decision maker makes a bad decision that results in tragedy (Nisho Maru and Ehime Maru incidents). A bit more frequently, bad decisions are made that don't result in tragedy, but do result in a loss of confidence in submariners' abilities (this incident with Kentucky is one"...says it all. You are obviously aware of the Ehime Maru incident, and can look up the Nisho Maru incident if you are so inclined. It's another case of poor decisionmaking and seamanship that resulted in loss of life. I don't take umbrage when these incidents are brought up as shortcomings. They are god-awful events that needn't have occurred had better judgement prevailed.

And for Gooey,

Risks are attendant to every enterprise. And errors in judgement add to the risks. Zipping around a fishing fleet at periscope depth isn't an error in judgement...it's insanity. In addition, subs are not engineered to operate at periscope depth at the speed indicated in your post, and if they were try to, they would significantly damage very expensive and operationally vital equipment. I don't doubt that you may have seen a periscope or other mast of a submarine while operating west of the WA and BC coasts. But to embellish the story with absurd exaggerations turns your story from an anecdote to a fairy tale. I didn't call you a liar, but you did admit to being a fisherman. I guess I should have just measured your story in the same way I measure the one that got away...
Well, I dont know how you measure the 'big one that got away' - I just tell it like it is.
I dont know how fast he was going 10knts -20knts - who cares? The fact is - he was there, cruising though the troll fleet going along fast enough to throw a wake behind his periscope or antenna - whatever -I troll at 21/2 - 3knts and he went by me like I was standing still. Hell, maybe it was a Russian or Chinese sub - you like that better? I cant say if it's happened lately- I've been retired since'99. No doubt -zipping through a fleet of fishing boats is insanity but it has happened more than once whether you care to believe it or not.
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