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  #11  
Old 08-13-2013
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

Brian -

The main features are the off wind performance, freeboard. It also appears that the overall construction is superior, although I don't have any structural problems with mine. Several gel coat "pops" along the deck. The cockpit is wide, great at dock, but difficult to brace yourself when heeling -- generally we sail no more than 20 degrees of heel for comfort and rudder issues. Beyond 20 the spade rudder "slaps" at the water.

As the kids get older, they have more outside interests than sailing -- so I am not sure how long they will be along.

For offshore use, several modifications would be required for the hunter - double water tanks, secure floor boards, additional halyards, lee cloths in the stern cabin would be must, etc. Of course, I'm not going anytime soon.

So, I'm getting opinions and would like to climb aboard one and sail her. I thought I saw a post stating that there is a charter outfit in California, which may be the best way to figure things out.

cb
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  #12  
Old 08-13-2013
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainDog View Post
That is a little silly, unless you are comparing it to a pure race boat. I think you would hard pressed to find anyone who has sailed a PSC or Valiant who would say it is a "notorious poor performer". Perhaps you are forgetting that your Tayana and the PSC are radically different designs.

In New England, a PSC and Catalina of a similar water are probably about 15 seconds different. For that 15 seconds you get a much more comfortable ride.

I for sure agree with you about the room. If I had two teenagers on board for more than a weekend, I would rather have private rooms for them.
I am a Valiant and PSC fan. You wont believe that as you read some of my posts. But they are a purpose built boat - long distance passage making. Just like the Catalina would not be my first choice to cross the Atlantic with, the PSC would not be my first choice to to day sail in the Chessy with or run down to FL with, or go to Bermuda with.

Just so you know, I worked a lot with the Valiant guys at Cedar Mills (where they were made). Both the tayana and my boats (380 and 400) were there. THey painted and outfitted much of my c380 and helped both with knowledge and work on my 400. THey did a lot of work on the Tayana and were a valuable resource in all respects. The stuff they build is top notch. Red's stainless work is insanely good. I hated to see their boats stop production.

However, I have sailed with them (Valiants). Our good friends came down from St Pete with us on their PSC 37. I have obviously spent a LOT of time on a Tayana 42. They are sslllooowwww in most winds that I like to sail in and motor slow. Now put her in twenty-five + sustained, and those boats lay over nicely and make for a nice, comfortable ride where most production boats become uncomfortable and are dropping in reefs. They have a awesome rep for a reason - as coastal cruisers of five days or so at sea, you can pick your weather window pretty well. THat doesn't really happen when crossing the Atlantic. They are heavy built (over-built) long distance passage making cruisers. They have a LOT of cabinetry which is awesome for storage and access to systems is extraordinary (ie, Valiants installed most of their stuff AFTER the boat is put together to make sure it is all serviceable and able to come back out). The boats have a lot higher end porthulls, stainless work is like a battleship, the decks are wide and comfortable, the cockpits are tight with good foot rests. Engine access is great with good straight berths/sea berth ready for lee cloths. THey are great boats for their purpose.

Now, take my Catalina for instance. SHe is the opposite of tender. She is running a easy 7+ in 15 kts of wind (reality is most of what you see or less) and will exceed hull speed. She will motor at hull speed (8.3). I have a lot of porthulls and hatches for a good breeze. I have a sugar scoop which is awesome for loading and unloading groceries, getting on/off from tender, loading water (try lifting 4-40 pound water jugs up over the free board on a PSC or Valiant or Tayana.... gets old real quick). She sails basically flat an has a very easy and predictable motion at sea (sure footed). You have a queen (almost king) sized berth below and a full V berth forward for comfortable sleeping. You have a separate shower that means you don't have to dry stuff off every time someone showers. You have a large cockpit you can stretch out in with a large table both for entertaining and eating outside in comfort. You have a walk through to the transom between wheels so you are not crawling over the coamings or cockpit seats. You have good footholds at all angles of heel. I sail in most winds the PSCs and Valiants and Tayanas motor in. I have two separate cabins for privacy and a place to get away. Also good when having guests.

Now, which boat would you rather spend time in Florida in or sail around for a weekend in the Chessy?? Crossing the Atlantic, give me a Valiant or TV-42. But for their use, why in the world get a heavy, cramped, slow, tight little boat????

I just don't get it. My suggestion is for the OP to look at different production boats (bene, Jenneau, or Catalina). If his budget is higher, maybe used sabres or X's or a J42. THose are well built boats too but perform well in the winds most typically seen. I still don't know what his budget is, so are we lookin at a 200k late 90s Crealock or a vintage 70s Crealock?

One last point, our previous moderator (John Pollard) also had a PSC and a family and he considered taking off and going cruising exactly like you are (he is also in the Chessy). He was going to sell that and get a Catalina. Food for thought...

Ok, I said my piece. They are my opinions, so take them as such. Others have different opinions and different needs and wants. If they didn't, everyone would be sailing one type of boat. Reality is that if you fall in love with the PSC, you will make it work and you will love it. Get the boat that calls to your heart, and if it is the PSC, go for it. It sure isn't like you are 'settling' to have a PSC!!! Darn nice boats and well built.

I'll leave this thread alone now.

Brian
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  #13  
Old 08-13-2013
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

I'm totally spoiled now sailing an outbound but have to agree with everything Brian said. I've owned PSC and Tatyana. I've done the Bermuda thing on the Tayana multiple times and was glad to be in that boat. Even now with weather routing not a trivial trip. If it was you and the admiral go for the V40 or PSC but in your situation probably not wise. To really throw you a curve ?have you thought about a really solid multi?. No draft worries in the chessy and separate staterooms for the kids. Maybe something like the prout39. They're strong blue water boats and few have been beat up in charter.
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  #14  
Old 08-13-2013
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
They are sslllooowwww in most winds that I like to sail in and motor slow. Now put her in twenty-five + sustained, and those boats lay over nicely and make for a nice, comfortable ride where most production boats become uncomfortable

Now, take my Catalina for instance. SHe is the opposite of tender. She is running a easy 7+ in 15 kts of wind (reality is most of what you see or less) and will exceed hull speed.
I have no problem with the Catalina. I loved mine and probably will own another one in the future. My point was just that saying PSCs "are NOTORIOUSLY slow and poor performers" is just false. If you cannot make near hull speed in 10 knots of wind on a PSC, you are sailing her wrong.

In 7 knots you might be flying a spinnaker, but I am still sailing and at a rapid clip.

Here are the 10 knot polars for PSC 34 (hull speed about 6.8)
10
0 0
20 1
30 2
40 3
52 5.8
60 6.1
75 6.3
90 6.5
110 6.5
120 6.4
135 6.1
150 5.5
180 5.1
210 5.5
225 6.1
240 6.4
255 6.5
270 6.5
285 6.3
300 6.1
308 5.8
320 3
330 2
340 1
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  #15  
Old 08-13-2013
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainDog View Post
I have no problem with the Catalina. I loved mine and probably will own another one in the future. My point was just that saying PSCs "are NOTORIOUSLY slow and poor performers" is just false. If you cannot make near hull speed in 10 knots of wind on a PSC, you are sailing her wrong.

In 7 knots you might be flying a spinnaker, but I am still sailing and at a rapid clip.

Here are the 10 knot polars for PSC 34 (hull speed about 6.8)
10
0 0
20 1
30 2
40 3
52 5.8
60 6.1
75 6.3
90 6.5
110 6.5
120 6.4
135 6.1
150 5.5
180 5.1
210 5.5
225 6.1
240 6.4
255 6.5
270 6.5
285 6.3
300 6.1
308 5.8
320 3
330 2
340 1

Polars are a THEORETICAL hull speed based upon a set sail plan and wind direction. I doubt many of us really ever see theoretical since we live in the real world and the wind is never at the perfect angle and our boats do not perform at theoretical. But lets put it this way...

You PHRF is 195. You boat is 34 feet long. GO to this list and rate your boat against the hundreds of other boats:

PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps

Look at the very few boats that have a Phrf at or higher than yours. Now eliminate all of those whose waterline is shorter. You are now left with a very short list of boats which are actually slower than a PSC... with even the Valiant 32 faster than you at a whopping 189.

Not trying to be a jerk. I love the boats. Your boat is built like a tank. She is a solid boat and if the crap offshore got ugly, I would much prefer to be in your PSC 34 than any other production boat I can think of with equivalent length. But... you (and those of similar build) are notoriously slow. And I would love to see a PSC doing near hull speed in 10 kts of wind in real life for any distance, and would really love to see one going over hull speed on anything other than a back of a truck.

Dont get me wrong, Raindog. I love the boats for their purpose. But speed ain't one of them.

Brian
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Last edited by Cruisingdad; 08-13-2013 at 03:15 PM.
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  #16  
Old 08-13-2013
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

I've done several hundred off-shore miles in a PSC 37 cutter. Very, very solid boat. And it performed quite well for a "heavy". It then went on to circumnavigate. Overall, a great boat.

But no way I'd personally choose it for family-with-kids cruising.
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  #17  
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I've done several hundred off-shore miles in a PSC 37 cutter.... And it performed quite well for a "heavy".
Apparently you didn't fill up your water tanks before you left. How was that 1.5L/day??? (snicker)

Brian
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  #18  
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

Thanks guys - I appreciate the input. So the best solution is TWO boats! One for fun in the bay and one for offshore use.

cb
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
And I would love to see a PSC doing near hull speed in 10 kts of wind in real life for any distance, and would really love to see one going over hull speed on anything other than a back of a truck.
Come to Texas any time and I will gladly show you both, and I have old sails and a not particularly fresh coat of bottom paint.

You can also look at people who actually use them for cruising. For example (from sv Luckness blog: s/v Luckness: Numbers on my first year cruising)

(RE two passages: CA to Hawaii and then Hawaii to Neah Bay WA)
"my fastest day heading to Hawaii was 6.7 knots, average 5.5. Fastest day heading to Neah Bay was 7.1, average 5.7. The hull speed of a PSC 37 is 7.2 knots, so having an average of 7.1 is pretty speedy, that was a fast day! I was very happy with the way Luckness performed on all of the passages and while coastal cruising. She moves well in light air and handles stronger winds and swell gracefully. Some of my favorite sailing times were while I was marveling at how I was moving along slowly in very light wind."

This is a single hander, on >2000 mile passage, who admits he does not push his boat very hard. He has days averaging near hull speed. And averages 5.7 knots on a 20+ day passage. With many light wind days.

Your PHRF link makes my point exactly: Pacific Seacraft 34 is 195, Catalina 310 (closes Catalina LWL to PSC 34) is 177. That is 18 seconds a mile, and the Catalina has a longer water line.

I will say again, I love the Catalina. If I was in the OPs position, I would buy a Catalina, not a PSC. It is for sure a lot more boat for the money.

However to propagate the myth that boat that are 25% heavier (Catalina 310 10,300 vs PSC 34 13,000) than a catalina are "NOTORIOUSLY slow and poor performers" is the same kind of BS that "if you cross and ocean in a Catalina you will die" is. Neither are at all helpful to people trying to understand the tradeoffs in analyzing different boats.

Is the Pacific Seacraft slower in average NE conditions than a similar LWL Catalina? Yes! How much slower? About 18 seconds a mile! In other words if you go for a typical 3-4 hour afternoon sail of 20 miles in average conditions, the Catalina 310 will normally get back to the dock 6 minutes before the PSC.

This is a far cry from the you image you project of the poor PSC wallowing at one knot headway in the bay for hours on end. Equally as far as the image others project of the Catalina dropping pieces like a leper on the passage to Europe. Both are just plain false, and not particularly helpful to people who come here looking for help in understanding the tradeoffs in different boats.
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

Brian / dog & smack - Any tactics that I could employ to mitigate the uneasy roll down wind? Rember, that I have a B&R rig, so I don't run much, which means I'm generally taking waves on the aft quarter.
cb
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