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  #21  
Old 08-13-2013
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

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Originally Posted by RainDog View Post
Come to Texas any time and I will gladly show you both, and I have old sails and a not particularly fresh coat of bottom paint.

You can also look at people who actually use them for cruising. For example (from sv Luckness blog: s/v Luckness: Numbers on my first year cruising)

(RE two passages: CA to Hawaii and then Hawaii to Neah Bay WA)
"my fastest day heading to Hawaii was 6.7 knots, average 5.5. Fastest day heading to Neah Bay was 7.1, average 5.7. The hull speed of a PSC 37 is 7.2 knots, so having an average of 7.1 is pretty speedy, that was a fast day! I was very happy with the way Luckness performed on all of the passages and while coastal cruising. She moves well in light air and handles stronger winds and swell gracefully. Some of my favorite sailing times were while I was marveling at how I was moving along slowly in very light wind."

This is a single hander, on >2000 mile passage, who admits he does not push his boat very hard. He has days averaging near hull speed. And averages 5.7 knots on a 20+ day passage. With many light wind days.

Your PHRF link makes my point exactly: Pacific Seacraft 34 is 195, Catalina 310 (closes Catalina LWL to PSC 34) is 177. That is 18 seconds a mile, and the Catalina has a longer water line.

I will say again, I love the Catalina. If I was in the OPs position, I would buy a Catalina, not a PSC. It is for sure a lot more boat for the money.

However to propagate the myth that boat that are 25% heavier (Catalina 310 10,300 vs PSC 34 13,000) than a catalina are "NOTORIOUSLY slow and poor performers" is the same kind of BS that "if you cross and ocean in a Catalina you will die" is. Neither are at all helpful to people trying to understand the tradeoffs in analyzing different boats.

Is the Pacific Seacraft slower in average NE conditions than a similar LWL Catalina? Yes! How much slower? About 18 seconds a mile! In other words if you go for a typical 3-4 hour afternoon sail of 20 miles in average conditions, the Catalina 310 will normally get back to the dock 6 minutes before the PSC.

This is a far cry from the you image you project of the poor PSC wallowing at one knot headway in the bay for hours on end. Equally as far as the image others project of the Catalina dropping pieces like a leper on the passage to Europe. Both are just plain false, and not particularly helpful to people who come here looking for help in understanding the tradeoffs in different boats.
This is a good discussion and one I hope the OP will find of use in his decision making. I think we have all agreed, even current and previous owners that the PSC is a poor choice for a family. He will take it or he will not. Now back to the discssion...

I never suggested a Catalina 310. I wouldn't buy one. I am not saying to buy a Catalina at the same length. WHat I am saying is for the same amount of money he is going to spend, why not go with a larger, faster, more comfortable production boat?

RD, I sailed down here (most of the way) with a PSC 37. I am not making this stuff up. I was at the Valiant facility. I am no making that up either. I have pics of all of this. Those boats cannot remotely keep up with mine and could not keep up with a Hunter 40.5 Legend that was also.

ANd using your story above, 5.5 ks compared to hull speed of 7.2 is nowhere near 'almost' hull speed. That is almost 25% under his hull speed. FOr example, I came across the gulf at 9.4, averaged around 8 and my hull speed is 8.3! Here is a shot of 9.1 SOG (not speed!!) at 16 kts of wind!



And you are right about production boats not falling apart at sea. Here is one the OP will like - A Catalina 400 sitting in Bermuda (wasn't that on the destination list??). I can give him pics all day long of coming across the gulf and sitting in FL. I'm there!



THe PSC 37 is 186 PHRF. Once again, start pulling PHRFs on boats with a PHRF remotely near that. I consider them poor performers and notoriously slow. You disagree. That is fine. But most people I know who sail them agree. Most people who buy these boats buy them because they know they are built well and are planning on taking them long distance cruising where they won't always have agreeable winds. The OP's destinations are perfectly fine and appropriate for a production boat. Your boat, RD, is a super boat and really well built. You are not going to win any races in it, but she will get you where you want to go in comfort and safety. I like your boat, but man, her performance is not something I would be happy with.

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  #22  
Old 08-13-2013
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

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Originally Posted by cjb View Post
Thanks guys - I appreciate the input. So the best solution is TWO boats! One for fun in the bay and one for offshore use.

cb
What is offshore? Are you under the impression that a production boat wont go to Bermuda??? I already posted that pic. Got the one of me crossing the gulf. Also have one that just crossed the Atlantic and is in the Med. What do you think are the limits of production boats?

I would prefer to cross the Atlantic in a PSC or Valiant or Tayana, but it is doable on my boat. Production boats are all over the carribean. But you are not crossing oceans, right? You are talking about Bermuda and FL with most of your time in the CHessy. I hope you haven't been sold the bag of goods (typically by salesman of said boats) that you need a Valiant 50 to make the run down to Florida!

Ugh! I give up.

Brian
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  #23  
Old 08-13-2013
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

I have to side with Rain Dog calling a PSC 34 notoriously slow is false. ( period, save your breath). And BTW we did come in second at Harvest Moon(in our class). I think 200 started, 70 finished..? She has a lively manner and nice sweet motion. I'm not up on all the stats and ratings like you and my hubby seemed to be, I can just tell you what I've observed for myself, and BTW I've sailed a few boats also, from full keel heavy to spade rudder lite, you just cannot describe a PSC 34 as notoriously slow.

And to put speed in perspective http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/200mile.pdf

To the OP
The PSC 34 is great for a cruising/liveaboard couple. But since you have a big roomy Hunter, not sure if you'd like the 34s interior day in day out, and add two teens?

On the flip side, cheaper made boats require more attention. Bigger boats usually have more stuff to break.

Oh and PS, love your solar panel arch. Have you posted somewhere how you made it?
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Last edited by oceangirl; 08-13-2013 at 04:26 PM.
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  #24  
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

Ocean girl thank you for the link-very informative. The very first day I had my new boat we did 206m/d. We had the broker( very experienced), my wife ( first offshore passage) and myself. We sailed in 30-35true DDW with poled solent and single reefed main ( sometimes double reefed) on preventer wing and wing. Autopilot did 75% plus of the steering. We frequently surfed up to 11+kts. (turned the Auto off when it became gusty). Did Norfolk to Barrington in under 56h with little wind after passing N.Y.C. and nearly no wind after turning corner at end of L.I. Point being 200m/d is golden and rare. Giggled much of the trip although seas were high and sleep tough.
OP on another thread I asked Bob why my old Tayana gave such a lousy ride broad reaching in any over ~6' seas. Would occur even if period was long. Wonder as it was so good at other angles. He explained why any boat will have a point of sail where the comfort quotient is lousy especially in the broad reaching area. Good to find that AWA and stay away from it. Only answer. Still in love with the 046 as I haven't found that angle yet but sure with the right sea, right wind, right angle it will appear.
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Last edited by outbound; 08-13-2013 at 05:26 PM.
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  #25  
Old 08-13-2013
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

Outbound - thanks - I thought that I was just a lousy skipper. The catamaran is a nice idea, but I'd have trouble finding dockage. OceanGirl & Dog - your opinions and links are very informative. I may take you up on the offer to visit. ShaneDennis is on their way south and will be crossing the Chessy, they have offered as well. Steve & Thumper offered to take me out on a 34' in Oriental, N.C.

Brian - your input has been most helpful. I am looking for something 2000 or newer, but guided by the input so far, it may be best to stay where I'm at. It is very comfy, and does a fine job. That's why I asked the question.

With all of the discussion regarding speed, let me ask one more question - I generally consider 50% of wind speed as SOG (in other words 5kn SOG in a 10 kn breeze) on a close -beam reach. Is this adequate / appropriate?

cb
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

As a PSC 34 live aboard and cruiser, I'm the first to admit the PSC 34 is slower on the pickup than lightweight production boats in light winds.

But step off a Catalina or Beneteau onto a PSC and the difference in attention to detail, quality and craftsmanship is immediately apparent. That's how we ended up on a PSC 34 - it's hard to go back to a Catalina 36 or Tartan 3700 or similar after taking your partner on a tour of a PSC 34.

McDonalds and Burger King make cheap and filling food. Target and Walmart sell cheap and good stuff. Catalina and Beneteau make cheap and safe boats. But isn't life about a little more than that?
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Old 08-13-2013
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

I have to agree with Rain Dog and Ocean Girl. Our PSC 34 would never be considered a race boat, but notoriously slow? We have never felt that way.

It's not all about speed though, and I agree that a PSC or Valiant is more boat than you need for weekend or coastal cruising. But for some, having a boat that is comfortable in a seaway and can handle anything you throw at her gives people piece of mind. I've known two people that swore they would never go sailing again after getting caught in some snotty weather. My aunt, who had sailed for years on their Hunter 36 never stepped foot aboard the boat again after one bad day and ended up selling the boat, which was sad because my uncle really loved to sail. Some friends of ours had a similar experience on their Catalina. The wife said she was done. They ended up recently buying a PSC 31 and she is back on the water, mostly because she knows the boat is solid and can handle much more than they would ever go out in. She feels safer on this boat and I firmly believe she wouldn't be out on the water right now otherwise.

The most important thing is whether or not the boat tugs at your heart strings. If you don't smile everytime you see her sitting in the slip, anchor, etc, then you have the wrong boat. Obviously this is subjective. I love the classic look. Production boats just do nothing for me. I can appreciate their space, boarding platforms, low maintenance, etc, but they do not pull on the heart strings.

As for a family of four? I would look for a bigger boat. But, that too is subjective. The Martins (see the book Ice Blink) circumnavigated as a family of four on a 25 foot boat. They later cruised the artic as a family of five on a 33 foot boat. To each their own...
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Old 08-13-2013
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Considering PSC for family of 4

I sail my Crealock 37 Yawl in the Chessy and have actually been pleasantly surprised that it doesn't take much wind to get her going.
BTW I used to own a Hunter 36. I got rid of it because I did not want to get caught in bad weather on it doing coastal or offshore work. I've already been in situations on a cruise to New England where I was glad to be in the Crealock and not the Hunter.
So guess it comes down to choices.
Like cruising dad says if I were you I'd get the Catalina and then make sure you pick your weather windows when doing coastal work.
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

Reason I bought the PSC was to introduce the wife to the life. Knew I would never even f do Bermuda on her just coastal hops. Got caught in t storms and line squalls. She felt safe. Much to say for that.
Bought the outbound as our future house and for big hops. Hopefully oceans. She's solid glass and although of modern design has a PHRF of 90. In past argued with Paulo about advantages of giving up a small bit of speed for comfort,strength ,ride and security. Spec'd no external wood. Yes the PSC is gorgeous but remember unless you huck Finn it's you pulling th epifanes.
P.s. I smile from the dinghy and bless The Lord. Whatever you do you should too. Even better if the admiral does as well. Much as I dislike them an I.P. may fit the bill. They are solidly built and have a lot of room.
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Re: Considering PSC for family of 4

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Originally Posted by cjb View Post
\Steve & Thumper offered to take me out on a 34' in Oriental, N.C.
I want to come along for that one!
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