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Problem with pressure water system on PS 34

3K views 16 replies 7 participants last post by  wsmurdoch 
#1 ·
I have a 1994 PS 34 that I bought last season. This past weekend I was filling the water tanks, and attempted to use the pressure water in the galley sinks.

Bottom Line Up Front: it didn't work and I can't figure out why.

I opened the valves for both water tanks, and all three valves underneath the galley sinks were open. Through-hulls for drawing in seawater for the pressure water and foot pumps were closed. My battery selector was on "ALL", and AC Master Breaker switch was "ON" (shouldn't matter in this case, but I'm not exactly electrically inclined so what do I know). I threw the Water Pressure switch on the DC panel... nothing happened. I turned the hot and cold water knobs on the galley sink as well as the on the sink in the head. Still nothing. Not even a noise from the pump(s) like they were trying to draw water.

I consulted my owner's manual, and it didn't really help me troubleshoot, though it does have a handy schematic drawing. I saw an expansion tank next to the pump underneath the garbage bin. The manual says it helps "smooth" the flow and prevent the pump from cycling on and off constantly. This led me to believe water goes in there.

I sent a note to the previous owner, and made sure to follow his directions for all the valve positions, etc. Still no go. He said that there is a valve on top of the expansion tank and that I need to pump air into it, though he didn't remember how much. I checked, and sure enough, it is the same kind of valve that is on the tires of my bike. I'll attempt to attach a photo of it. His opinion is that the expansion tank is the key to figuring this out. I can't help but wonder if it isn't some sort of electrical problem.

Anyone run into this situation? Any recommendations? Hoping not to have to pay mass quantities of money to have someone from the marina figure it out if I can avoid it.
 

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#2 ·
check for fuse or circuit breaker for the pump. pump will run with out air in the accumulator. the accumulator nitrogen pressure should be about 1/3 the pump cut off pressure. not sure why you need the sea water valves open ? do you have a water maker?
 
#3 ·
The seawater intakes have nothing to do with this system, so don't worry about that at all. You should be able to take a shower while your mate is pre-washing dishes with seawater at the same time.

This is quite a simple system (exactly the same in my PS37), so I think you can figure it out yourself if you go step by step. My first reaction is that there's probably a leak in the accumulator. I say this because the PO has experience pumping it up; I've never had to do that. (Indeed, your post has taught me something about the accumulator. Thanks.)

My second reaction is that you could have a problem with the pressure pump. As soon as you flip the switch for the system, the pump should start up to pressurize the lines. That's what mine does. It could be power to the pump, an electrical problem with the pump itself (it's damp down there, so not an ideal place for any pump to live) or possibly a clog in the pump (unlikely because all it does is pump clean freshwater, unlike the sink pumps/macerators). If the pump is original, surely it's time for it to die (21 years old; that's something like 150 in people years).

Do you have a multimeter? You could quickly check to see if power is going to the pump and then work from there.

If you are able to draw water from the tanks using the sink foot pump, I think we can assume that the lines are clear.

Having the pressure water isn't really necessary, but it sure comes in handy when you want to drain the tanks.

As for your question about tank capacity, I'd ask the same about my PS37. It's one of those PS mysteries. Oh, and I don't believe that you have 75 gallons in practical terms. Sure, if you top the tanks off to bursting there might just be that much in there, but as soon as you open up the lines some will probably run out the taps (at least it does on the 37), and as soon as you heel more than 20 degrees (to starboard in the 37) more will run out -- so keep the lines shut when doing any serious sailing.
 
#4 ·
If the pump runs at all is the question. No whirr or buzz, switch or in line fuse?? Check with multi meter at panel and trace wires to switches and on to pump. Get power confirmed at pump. Possible pump failure? Whirr but no joy? probably air lock in the intake line Close all taps but one and suck long and determined on it( Cold water) until the pump gets a grip on it. The accumulater is just a balloon in the pressure side to smooth out pulses of off/on and to allow pump to rest until pressure drops a bit on demand. It's the last thing to check. Usually require 20 psi or so from a bicycle pump They get old and rubber bladder hardens up so may need replacing but thats not the problem you describe. If youve got raw and fresh going to same pump ,there's a mess of valves.and knowing what's what is imperative.
 
#6 · (Edited)
I have a 1994 PS 34...

I threw the Water Pressure switch on the DC panel... nothing happened. ... Not even a noise from the pump(s)
So, the pump motor doesn't run when turned on; motor is bad or no juice to the motor.

1. Is there 12V coming to the Water Pressure breaker?
(check between the brass bus bar with all the black wires screwed to it and the bus bar at the breaker)

2. Is there 12V leaving the Water Pressure breaker?
(check between the brass bus bar with all the black wires screwed to it and the brown wire on the Water Pressure breaker)

3. Is there 12V coming to the pump's pressure switch?
(check between the black and brown wires coming to the pump where the brown wire from the breaker connects to the red wire going to the pump pressure switch)

4. Is there 12V coming to the pump's motor?
(there is a red wire going from the pump pressure switch to the pump motor, check between it and the black wire at the pump)

Check them with a VOM meter set to 0-20V DC or with 12V test light.

Bill Murdoch
1988 PSC 34
Irish Eyes
 
#7 ·
Some pumps have two diaphragm switches. The power goes thru the lowpressure cut out.(to prevent run on and on dry) and then thru the high/low pressure cutoff switch and then to the motor. A good ground is also nessary. To start the show the low press has to be bypassed wth a hot wire until press builds in the system to hold it in the on position If you regularly run out of water installing a push button in the circuit saves time
 
#8 ·
Thanks - that's very helpful! I do have a multimeter and I'll see what it tells me. Here is a photo of my breaker panel. The light brown wire on the right side just below the middle of the photo is the Water Pressure switch. It only has a wire coming off one side of the switch. It isn't easy to tell from the photo, but only two of those switches have a wire on each side of the switch - yet they all seem to work fine.
 
#10 ·
Yup. The juice comes into the breakers on the two brass strips (bus bars) that run down each row of breakers. If you follow the brass strips back up, you will find red wires that go back to the amp meter then eventually back to the battery positive terminal. The brown wire on the Water Pressure breaker runs to a spot under the trash can where the pump is located (or at least mine does).

You also have a couple of things that are connected before the breakers. I don't. Whatever they are, they get their power whether any breaker is on or off. Hopefully somewhere along their route there is a fuse or breaker to protect the wiring from an over current situation (short to ground).

[I'm running on memory. I am 400 miles away from the boat.]
 
#11 ·
Maybe you are at this point already, and I don't want to disagree with any of the other excellent advice, but why not start off by going directly to the pump and checking for power there? If its coming through, there's no need to open up the electrical panel at all. It's a pump problem. On my PS37 I can't remember a time when there was a problem at the panel. It's almost always a component that needs to be replaced, and I have had to replace some of this Jabsco stuff. These pumps and the like aren't designed to last more than a decade, and probably much less if used frequently. Thankfully it's usually a simple matter to replace them, and they are widely available (but here the prices can vary by 100% from one chandler to another!).
 
#12 ·
The hot wire I mentioned is needed at the pump itself.Determine if there is power at the pump. If my discription is right, it only will be hot on one side of the lo pressure off switch.This needs to be bypassed by a jumper wire(may be already dangling there.) when you do that the pump should start .Keep the jumper on until pressure builds up. May be other problems ,like an air lock so pressure doesn't happen,but that's just more pondering.
 
#13 ·
Okay, I tested the the power coming to the pressure water breaker from the battery, and power leaving the breaker. Multimeter read 12.7 V on the first one and 12.72 V on the second one, so the problem doesn't seem to be in the breaker panel (see photos). The only bus bar in there that had a lot of black wires on it was on the AC side.

Unless there is an in-line fuze or something in the brown wire between there and the pump, I'm guessing that power is reaching the pump. I tried to verify that by testing the leads on the pump, but I physically couldn't get to them. They go into the top of the pump housing, and I presume the leads are attached inside (see photo). I could see a few screws around it, so I think the top of the housing comes off. Problem is, it is mounted within an inch or so of the counter top, so even if I could reach the screws, I couldn't get a screwdriver in there. I thought about removing the whole pump/accumulator assembly to see if I could pull them closer so I could get the top off - no joy. I could only see one of the mounting bolts, and to reach it I had to get my whole arm in there meaning I'd have to do it by feel. I'm quite at a loss.
 

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#15 · (Edited)
Because of the way production boats are put together it may be necessary to lift off the deck so that the galley counter can be removed to access the pump. On the other hand,since the pump was probably installed during fitting out, it makes sense that it can be removed.Pumping the accumulator will have no effect on whether the pump whirrs. If the wiring is good to the pump,you have to find out by measuring it with a meter at the pump. If the pump is bad you have remove it to test it and the connections and replace.Either way looks to me like you're going to become familiar with the situation.Sometimes the pump is fastened to a larger panel and then that is fastened to the cabinetry.I often do that to cut vibration and it may hid the actual pump hold mechanisms The hoses often are secured to the pump with U wedges to jam the fitting. Pry off with screwdriver( or the usual hose clamps .Before you get excited be sure there is no inline fuse near the pump. Sometimes a slow blow fuse is installed so it goes if pump runs on and on after tank goes dry.
 
#16 ·
Rather than trying to get to the pump itself it is easy to test for power a short distance back in the wire...12 volt test lights have a sharp pointy end...attach the clip to a convinent ground and poke the point throught the insulation on the wire...If there is power there then you will have to figure out how to get the pump out because the motor needs replacing...
 
#17 ·
On my boat the black negative wires from all the DC circuits come back to the electrical panel where they are connected to two brass bars in the back (against the hull) of the electrical panel.

Your photo in post #1 shows the pump more clearly than #13.

On my boat I can follow the follow the red and the black wire from the pump (pressure switch and motor) back to the brown and black wires from the electrical panel. They are connected with spade connectors which are a good spot to check the voltage.

If you can't get to that spot, you can run sewing needles into the red and black wires with needle nose pliers and check the voltage that way. A little silicone caulk rubbed over the holes might repair the holes if you are too worried about the holes.

Bill Murdoch
1988 PSC 34
Irish Eyes
 
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