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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > Off Topic > Politics/Religion/War/Government
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  #1371 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2008
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windmagic

That was very interesting. There is a lot of truth in what you said. I am not a "typical" dem, which is why I dont try to argue or defend dem policies I dont agree with. But it is certainly true that urban voters are more liberal on average than rural ones are. And there IS a disconnect between Dems and many rural voters but there is also a disconnect between Repubs and many urban voters.

But in your graph of Florida I am wondering what difference it might have made if Obama had actually done any campaigning in the state. Given the (kind of stupid) DNC rule that if Fla. moved their primary too early then the candidates shouldnt campaign there and the delegates wouldnt count, it may well be that Florida voters know less about Obama than other voters or other candidates (certainly less than they know about Hillary since everybody knows exactly who she is) I suspect the pattern you were noting would still be there though.
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Old 02-25-2008
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"Actually, what he's saying is that if you believe in the Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution, you're a racist."

Again, trying to put words in my mouth. Nope, didnt say that and dont mean to say that. One more time, what I DID say was that if African Americans dont vote for Republicans (and 90% dont) they vote that way for reasons that they consider to be good ones. I pointed out that given the decades old "Southern Strategy" (google it if you think I am making it up. Nixon first pursued it and it has been openly acknowledged by many republicans and other observers) of pandering to southern voters who were alienated from the Dems by the 1960's civil rights reforms it is no surprise that African Americans dont vote for them.

Didnt say anything about the 10th amendment. Not trying to "prove" anything. Just saying that black people have good reasons for doing what they do. You may not like their reasons. But they have them.

And given that many black people live in rural areas, it isnt wind magic's pattern doing this either even though his observations seem quite accurate at a more general level.
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  #1373 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2008
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Anyone interested in the subject of race, from a black perspective unbeholden to the "race political macine" might want to view the DVD "What Black Men Think". It's a refutation of the US government's social policies of the last four decades. You can find it here:http://www.amazon.com/What-Black-Thi...3993731&sr=8-1
It will rock many out of their preconceived notions of race as well as what is actually happening in the black community. Some may be shocked to discover that there are other black conservatives other than Clarence Thomas, but the DVD includes noted black liberals such as Juan Williams as well.

I'm not going to get into, once again, answering sck5's points as he's impervious to any input and, rather than respond, he merely changes the subject. It was predictable that he'd play the race card. He get's a little gold star next to his name for denouncing humour that employed a common "black" name and accent. He conveniently forgets that certain names and accents make up a goodly portion of American humour irrespective of race and that all races avail themselves of such humour. the gold star is for display of superior sensitivity in the face of, well, rational discourse? For someone who claims to not be a typical liberal Democrat, he sure seems to evince all of the symptoms. (g)

Windy brings up an interesting point of demographics. The fact that the south is the fastest growing section of the country and is notably more conservative than the northeast, midwest, and pacific northwest it's hardly surprising that either party would value it's electoral votes. That the Democrats lost the "solid south" is a historical fact that cannot be explained by civil rights legislation alone. The 1960's Democratic party lost the south for many reasons and, as Windy states, it was not for lack of southern understanding of the Democratic party platform. That the Democratic party is unable to regain southern votes speaks still more to the party than to southerners. They, like most of the rest of the country, understand exactly what the Democrat party stands for. That's why, as a whole, the country can now be considered conservative-moderate.

Windy omitted only one detail in his spot-on analysis. The urban areas are the home of the political machines. The old patronage system as well as unionization are still powerful forces within America's larger cities. If you're involved in government within those cities you're a Democrat, regardless of how you privately vote. and you're well advised to keep your conservative views well hidden unless you know exactly to whom you're speaking. There is no comparable Republican machine because the notion of government dispensing favors is antithetical to the Republican ethos (in principle!).

That rural blacks would vote in varying patterns is no surprise absent the provisions of the big city political machine. In a country where the turn-out rarely get's north or south of 50%, blacks can be just as apathetic as whites. What does differentiate rural blacks from urban blacks is that rural blacks have a commodity that many urban blacks do not; a job. Having a job and paying taxes is a far better predicter of voting patterns than is race. Job holders are part of "the system" and much less likely to be aggrieved at the lack of government largesse. And we know which party is the party of government largesse.

To the extent that Republicans are down it is due far more to their own failings than any new ideas from the Democrat party. The Republican Congress and the Republican President acted like Democrat-lite in their control of the White House and Congress. They'll never win that battle; if you want candy, you vote for the Candyman not a parsimonious uncle you happened to catch while on a bender. It's going to take some time to erase the memories of Republicans who thought they could compete by just being a stricter nanny than the Dems.

Early on in this thread I mentioned my $100 wager that a Republican would win the White House in '08. I'm as confident as I was at that time. The war's in Iraq and Afghanistan are again Republican strengths. As I've stated elsewhere, Americans are not against those wars; they're against losing those wars. Now that demonstrable positive progress is being made the war's and the larger war on terror become Republican strengths. The shellacking of Ms. Clinton of recent is largely due to her inability to take a rational position on those war's. Mr. Obama has painted himself in a dangerous position come the general election. Ms. Clinton knows that she will have to move to the right in a general election; Mr. Obama may not be able to do so.

The only thing that can put a Democrat in the White House next year is a worsening of the economy. I know of one mentally depressed condo-dealer in central Florida who's betting on it. (g)
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  #1374 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2008
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Is it really a "race issue" here. I am sure I could come up with stats that a single woman with 2 kids is more likely to vote on this party and a married woman that has adopted the kids of her husband may vote X% of the time for this party...

In the end the credance of is it a black, woman, man (notice very few if any polls reflect the real minority - men.) vote - or for you sailors: just because you drink Scotch Whisky, or too cheap so you buy Scotch Whiskey, or you drink red white and blue label... in the end it is actually individual people with individual tastes that vote. In terms of voting - a vote doesn't care what your color is, or what label of beverage you drink - just that you vote. This slinging of "racism" is merely yet just evidence why we as a collective group are still oppressed and believe that social re-engineering helps compensate for lack of integration and the granting of laws that are contradictory to "each is created equal"....


If racism was such an issue Obama would be crying it from the trees and ripping off Martin Luther Kings speeches and not Ted Kennedy's...

if we were so oppressed - then neither Obama or Hillary would be solely competing against each other for the Dem ticket. (Two Historical FIRSTS both at the same time as a country we should be proud we finally got to this point)

As a country we are finally at the crossroads to put history behind us, less those whom dredge up the past because they couldn't get past yesterday...
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Last edited by artbyjody; 02-26-2008 at 12:18 AM.
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  #1375 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2008
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Nicely stated, Jody.
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  #1376 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2008
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seak out thomas sowell for some interesting perspectives on conservatism from a black man

I agree with the comment that it is much more about rich vs poor. The dems like to create class envy and it works with blacks because a disproportionate part of black america is poor. Poverty pimps is the appropriate term for many dems. Don't come up with any MEANINGFUL reforms, just hand out more candy and hollow promises along with some race baiting of conservatism. That's how you get to 90%.

Tell me what the dems have really done for black america? The war on poverty? Improvement of inner city schools? How about the civil rights act? Oh wait, a larger percentage of republicans voted for it than dems did. Ditto for the voting rights act. You can go back to the founding of the NRA. It was created by a republican to guarantee minorities access to self defense because democrats were trying to take guns away from "the poor". And the dems are still trying to take guns away from "the poor". When the gun laws were enacted in DC the crime rate soared...mostly against blacks.

If I was as cynical and twisted as the dem leadership I would postulate that the dems are the racists. They want the crime to continue in the ghettos (only criminals will have guns) so that they will kill each other off. They want to keep the inner city people in poverty while giving them meager handouts, indentured servants. They give them the worst schools in the nation to keep them stupid so they'll keep voting democrat.

And then there is media manipulation. Over 80% of "journalists" claim to be democrat/liberal. M Moore's columbine showed a campaign commercial of GWBush's with the willie horton ad. But MM added a subtitle to the commercial that wasn't there in the original that changed the whole meaning of the commercial and painted GWB as a racist. He wasn't called on it. The number of racist inuendo, lies & slander perpetrated by media is staggering. But what do you expect from the best friends the dems have? And yet a grand wizzard of the KKK has served in the democratic house for how long?
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  #1377 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xort View Post
Tell me what the dems have really done for black america? The war on poverty? Improvement of inner city schools? How about the civil rights act? Oh wait, a larger percentage of republicans voted for it than dems did. Ditto for the voting rights act.
When a Democrat, George Wallace, was standing in the doorway of a public school to deny a decent education to black children, it was a Republican President who, for the first time since the Civil War Reconstruction era, sent Federal troops to protect them and enforce the law. In the early 1960s, the only southern Republican Senator was John Tower of Texas. At that time, Democrats were still making blatantly racist speeches in the halls of Congress. They knew they could still get away with making such awful speeches, because they believed they could still hold on to the seats of political power. When the White Democrat political stranglehold on the south was broken up, and, for the first time, the southern states had two parties vying for votes, it marked the beginning of the modern era, in which southern blacks have been able to seek and win political offices, and effectively participate in government. Democrats have never forgiven Republicans for disrupting their political paradise, and they have the gall to call us racists.
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Old 02-26-2008
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Has it occured to the collective here that a person has done EXACTLY what the democrats are best at?

A rather feeble attempt at humor, a slim attempt at paraphrasing what any weatherman in the south has said.

(I've heard, and I quote.. "It's fixin ta rain ta-night, so's y'all gitz yer winda's up, ya'hear"?)

into a 5 page thread roll-off on racism.

This my good friends is the rub.
Three card monty, sleight of hand, obfuscaion of the issues, and "don't look at the issues, look over here, something shiny"

and you took the bait, hook line and sinker.

"bless your hearts"
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Old 02-26-2008
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I agree with everything you said, however I think Kennedy was President at the time.
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Old 02-26-2008
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You're right Bubb. I was thinking of the earlier "Little Rock Nine" incident of 1957, which involved Arkansas State Democrat Governor Orval Faubus's refusal to honor a Federal court order to integrate the schools. President Eisenhower placed the Arkansas National Guard under Federal control and sent Army troops to escort nine black students into an all-white public school. The integration did not occur without violence. When President Kennedy stood up to George Wallace, he was following President Eisenhower's lead. After Ike set the precedent, Kennedy could hardly have failed to follow suit.
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