Democrats versus Republicans

[sailaway21]

Originally Posted by SailorMitch

done,sway. this was big poop at the time. where were you?:Think Progress » Bush Tells Barnes Capturing Bin Laden Is ‘Not A Top Priority Use of American Resources’
and there's also this. bush the flip flopper
Get Osama Bin Laden before I leave office, orders George W Bush - Times Online.

Your answer for sck5 is unsatisfying. It does not say that President Bush did not view capturing bin Laden as unimportant. It made reference to the use of 100,000 American troops and stated more pressing goals on the war on terror.

Cam well states the desired outcome for Iraq as well as the probable required action on Iran. The problem of Islamism and the West dates back a long way. Some of the seeds were sown during the Reagan administration when we withdrew from Lebanon after the bombing of the Marines at the Beirut airport. Coupled with the feckless policies of the Clinton administration, which mostly amounted to bombing a Sudanese aspirin factory, the Islamists have had every reason to think that America is a toothless tiger that, once bloodied, will retreat to it's den. Peace will be imposed the old fashioned way. For every one of ours killed we kill ten of theirs. We will not retreat from any field where the battle is joined. The only thing that the culture of Islamism respects is strength. It therefore matters little whether Iraq was right, wrong, or somewhere in between. The US and the west cannot be seen to fail.

Europe has already half surrendered. The simple economic necessity that Europe is confronted with, a declining birth rate requiring imported labor, means that Europe is already looking and will increasingly look, Islamic. The daily strife caused by this is a staple of the European press. It's not going to get better. The assumption that Muslims will assimilate within the liberal democracies of western Europe has proven a canard. Rioting by Muslim youth is already an accepted part of life within France. Europe's ineffectual response is appeasement. these people do not take appeasement as a sign of victory, they take it as a sign of progress and merely renew their efforts to dismantle the Euro liberal democratic system. It may be in many respects already too late for Europe to do much towards her future. Demographics are destiny.

Increasingly, the US policy will be forced to become one of, "for us, or against us". There will be no room for a middle ground in this fight, the enemy will not allow it.

It's been an entertaining forty years observing Israel and the Palestinians. Much stupidity and perfidy's have been displayed. It is now no longer a spectator sport for the western world to be safely enjoyed from our davenports while reading and watching the news. All of the west is now Israel. We are now all Israelis. Our enemy has distinguished us as such and I believe they mean what they say.

[sailaway21]

The past doesn't exactly square with the present, but here it is:
Barack Obama: The Undistinguished Gentleman [Karl]

[sck5]

"The only thing that the culture of Islamism respects is strength"

Sailaway21, spokesman for the "Islamic culture"

I think you are revealing more about yourself than them, Sway. You are the one with all the macho chestbeating pronouncements about killing 10 times as many of them or some such nonsense. It is grade school playground nonsense like this that makes our allies want to run and hide. You might want to consider that these allies have a lot more experience with and know a lot more about Arab culture than you do.

(Note - Arab culture actually exists. "Islamic culture" is a nonsensical construct. If it DID exist would have to include everyone from Morocco to Indonesia, including Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Albania, Turkey, large parts of Nigeria, Chad, Mauretania, Burkina Faso, Somalia, and numerous other non-Arab cultures that dont even speak the same language, arent members of the same race (for whatever meaning that might have) and dont even live on the same continent. All you reveal with comments about "Islamic culture" is bigotry and ignorance.)

[PBzeer]

It's really rather amazing how instead of actually refuting statements, you instead, twist them to mean something they do not say .... even by implication.

Originally Posted by sck5

"Islamic culture" is a nonsensical construct.

Culture:
5 a: the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b: the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time
culture> culture> c: the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization culture focused on the bottom line> d: the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic culture> culture of materialism will take time.

Evidently, ignorance, in the pursuit of proving a misguided point is acceptable.

Opposition, to something one does not agree with, is not, ipso facto, bigotry. Though it is often paraded as such, by those without a cogent response.

[sck5]

PB

You prove my point with your citation. 1.2 billion muslims spread across 5 continents are not "a culture". Sharing a religion does not make them the same culture any more than a Baptist in Colorado is the same culture as Catholic in Nigeria. Just because they are all christians doesnt mean they are from the same culture. Similarly, just because an Albanian is a Muslim doesnt mean they are from the same culture as an Indonesian even though the Indonesian is also Muslim. There is a lot more to culture than that.

You ought to be a bit more careful who you call ignorant and when. Somebody might think YOU were ignorant!!

And as for bigotry, saying negative things about people who you have never even met (and clearly dont understand if you are lumping all 1.2 billion together) is what I call bigotry.

[sck5]

a question for those of you trash talking Muslims. Have you ever known a Muslim personally? If so, did that person try to kill you or assault you?

[SailorMitch]

Originally Posted by sailaway21

Your answer for sck5 is unsatisfying. It does not say that President Bush did not view capturing bin Laden as unimportant. It made reference to the use of 100,000 American troops and stated more pressing goals on the war on terror.

Cam well states the desired outcome for Iraq as well as the probable required action on Iran. The problem of Islamism and the West dates back a long way. Some of the seeds were sown during the Reagan administration when we withdrew from Lebanon after the bombing of the Marines at the Beirut airport. Coupled with the feckless policies of the Clinton administration, which mostly amounted to bombing a Sudanese aspirin factory, the Islamists have had every reason to think that America is a toothless tiger that, once bloodied, will retreat to it's den. Peace will be imposed the old fashioned way. For every one of ours killed we kill ten of theirs. We will not retreat from any field where the battle is joined. The only thing that the culture of Islamism respects is strength. It therefore matters little whether Iraq was right, wrong, or somewhere in between. The US and the west cannot be seen to fail.

Europe has already half surrendered. The simple economic necessity that Europe is confronted with, a declining birth rate requiring imported labor, means that Europe is already looking and will increasingly look, Islamic. The daily strife caused by this is a staple of the European press. It's not going to get better. The assumption that Muslims will assimilate within the liberal democracies of western Europe has proven a canard. Rioting by Muslim youth is already an accepted part of life within France. Europe's ineffectual response is appeasement. these people do not take appeasement as a sign of victory, they take it as a sign of progress and merely renew their efforts to dismantle the Euro liberal democratic system. It may be in many respects already too late for Europe to do much towards her future. Demographics are destiny.

Increasingly, the US policy will be forced to become one of, "for us, or against us". There will be no room for a middle ground in this fight, the enemy will not allow it.

It's been an entertaining forty years observing Israel and the Palestinians. Much stupidity and perfidy's have been displayed. It is now no longer a spectator sport for the western world to be safely enjoyed from our davenports while reading and watching the news. All of the west is now Israel. We are now all Israelis. Our enemy has distinguished us as such and I believe they mean what they say.

sway-- so sorry you didn't find that quote from Bush to be satisfying. why split hairs over this? your boy did not consider capturing OBL as a top priority so why do you need to spin this point? because sck5 was right in his assertion and you were wrong to challenge on it? and do you recall that the CIA also shut down it's special unit to find OBL about this same time? that also was widely covered in the press at the time, I'm sure even by the conservative press. why did the decider decide to do that? sure if the army happened to find OBL in some spider hole they gladly would have taken him in (with great braying from the white house.). but otherwise they weren't out there looking for him. yes, it is that simple Sway.

[PBzeer]

Have it your way sck5. Reality is not open to discussion. What is, is, and no amount of kumbaya or spin, can change it.

Let me summarize the points you have brought up in the past few pages.

There are no Islamic terrorist, only disgruntled Arabs, who are reacting to Western imperalisim. That they invoke the name of Allah, is no reflection upon the Muslim religion, so there is no jihad being waged.

Anyone who opposes these "disgruntled Arabs" is both ignorant and bigoted, because they don't personally know them.

I believe the last person to publicly put forth such nonsense was the Reverend Jeremy Wright.

In some ways, I much prefer the Islamic terrorist. At least they are intellectually honest.

[SailorMitch]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

Mitch...I will take a shot at this one. A successful conclusion to the war will find a stable Iraq government, able to control its' own borders and police its' own citizens...an Iraq which will not devolve into sectarian genocide absent our troops.
I think it will take a long time to do that but that we can get perhaps 2/3 of our troops out in the next couple of years if all keeps going reasonably well. That will be good because we will need them for our invasion of Iran!

cam, I find your answer to be unsatisfying. with all due respect, I'm not interested in what you or the other Bush apologists think the desired outcomes are to define success in this ill-concieved, ill-executed war. my question still is what does bush say the goals are? what does he see as the finish line so that we all know when we get there? other than the nebulous "win the war on terrorism" what does he want to achieve in iraq/afghan?
very funny about the war-mongering on iran absent direct threats to the US ( and not more of the slight of hand bush used for iraq.

[PBzeer]

Mitch, not to quibble, but important, doesn't necessarily mean top priority. There are many things on my boat that are important, but are not the first things I address during maintainence. That sck5 does not choose his words properly, is not Sway's fault. He responded to the assertion that the capture, or death of bin Ladin was of no concern, ie: unimportant. Saying it isn't a top priority in no way lessens it's importance, only the order in which it is addressed.