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  #261 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2007
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  #262 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAGNAR
Capecodphyllis:

Freedom of the Press forbids government to censor speech. The Right to property allows those who own the Press to print whatever they chose. Contrary to what those in the Press would have us believe, the First Amendment doesn't guarantee them, or anyone, a platform for their views. It's up to the market to decide which Press stays in business, which means the People decide what makes it past the editors.

Look at it this way: My freedom of speech doesn't entitle me to walk into someone's living room and challenge their deeply held convictions. The fact that someone is employed by a Press agent doesn't grant them the right to contradict the paper's editorial policies. Both the homeowner in the example, and the owner of the Press, are allowed to enjoy their property as they see fit.

Rudy, BTW, returned the check because the "prince" was, in effect, justifying the attack. (For a Saudi prince to condemn anyone as a terrorist by his own, cheap and convenient definition is beyond ridiculous. I was stunned by Rudy's bluntness. Few politicians would have even thought to return the tainted check, settling for silence or, at best, giving it to the poor.)

As for Israel being a terrorist State:

Check the source, its definitions, your definitions, and the relevant history.

(In case it matters to you: I have no Jewish heritage.)
I agree with everything you say. The point of the article was to illustrate this: the media are able to shape public opinion and influence foreign policy to a degree that is both frightening and un-American. The Republicans and Democrats are little more than media stooges. Sock-puppets.

And the media is being hogged by Liberals and Zionists. We need more diversity in the media: diversity of opinion. The acceptable range of polite discourse has become so damn narrow it's Orwellian. And there really isn't a scratch of difference between the 'big ticket' views of Rudy and Hillary. Neither will do a thing to protect our southern border cuz that's what the media wants. So, who owns the media is 'ultra important'.

The Saudi prince is one of the richest men in the world, and the leader of a country that is very important to the united states. It doesn't matter if you like the prince or hate the prince - he's an important world figure. If his mug made the front page of every newspaper in America, the sheeple - who strongly support Israel - would be asking, "who's that guy?" And that's the way Israel wants it.

You see, if the prince were to be interviewed by a newspaper or magazine; a television or cable station; or in a Hollywood documentary film; he would certainly mention Palestinian suffering. And serving up the horrid details of Palestinian suffering is absolutely forbidden on television. And when the subject is [rarely] covered in print, it's carefully censored to avoid "embarrassing Israel". This is censorship at its worst.

Being a half-Jew, I try to see this as an 'Israel-First' issue -- not a 'Jewish' one. I couldn't care less if you are Jewish. All I want to know is this: do you wish to subjugate America's interests to those of Israel? That's all.

We should utilize the sedition laws that are still on the books. Or, at the very least, follow our own law and require the radical Zionists to register as foreign agents. That would greatly curtail the damage to America's interests (as illustrated by Pat Buchanan in his books). If we don't do this, hatred of Jews will continue to grow and grow, endangering Jews everywhere. Support Israel; yes. Let them F us over; no. Nufsed/off-topic.

..

Last edited by capecodphyllis; 06-26-2007 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 06-27-2007
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  #264 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2007
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  #265 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAGNAR
Thanks for the diversion, CapeCodPhyllis.
Ragnar
Dear Ragnar:

Let me quote a few sentences from a book published in 1928 titled Propaganda, by Edward Bernays:
  1. The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.
  2. We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes are formed, our ideas suggested largely by men we have never heard of.
  3. Whatever attitude one chooses to take toward this condition, it remains a fact that in almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons.... who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind, who harness old social forces and contrive new ways to bind and guide the world....
  4. Sometimes the effect on the public is created by a professional propagandist, sometimes by an amateur deputed for the job. The important thing is that it is universal and continuous; and in its sum total is regimenting the public mind every bit as much as an army regiments the bodies of its soldiers....
  5. No serious sociologist believes any longer that the voice of the people expresses any divine or especially wise and lofty idea. The voice of the people expresses the mind of the people, and that mind is made up for it by the group leaders in whom it believes and by those persons who understand the manipulation of public opinion....
I should mention that Bernays' book is not profound or especially valuable in itself. It merely states a few self-evident facts about the way in which a modern society works. For the person interested in propaganda, far more useful books are available. The reason I chose Bernays' book to quote is that it provides a more concise and clear summary, in a few quotable paragraphs, of the role of propaganda in modern life than most other books on the subject.

All it does is state the obvious: namely, that the whole concept of democracy is meaningless in an age where a few people have in their hands the mechanism for controlling the attitudes and opinions of a majority of the electorate. And Bernays also takes the disingenuous position that not only is this control a fact of life, but that it is a good thing; it is necessary to control and to regiment the thinking of the public in order to avoid chaos, and it can only lead us to greater progress and prosperity. He simply glosses over the question of who should exercise this control and what their motives should be.

If you really want to study the subject of propaganda, a good place to start is with the 1962 book, also titled Propaganda, by the Frenchman Jacques Ellul. That book is still in print. Professor Ellul deals with the subject in much greater depth and with much greater honesty than Bernays does, but he agrees with Bernays on the most obvious and fundamental conclusions: on the irrelevance of the idea of democracy, for example. I quote from Professor Ellul's book:
If I am in favor of democracy, I can only regret that propaganda renders the true exercise of it almost impossible. But I think that it would be even worse to entertain any illusions about a coexistence of true democracy and propaganda.
To me, it is frustrating that a conclusion that seems so obvious is nevertheless resisted by so many otherwise intelligent people. Democracy has become almost a sacred concept to them, this idea that the policies guiding our nation should be decided by counting the votes of every featherless biped who has reached the age of 18. It's like motherhood: they're almost afraid to question it.

This seems to be as true of the intellectual in our society as it is of Joe Sixpack. The fact is that intellectuals are no more likely to be independent-minded than people who work with their hands; intellectuals, just like Joe Sixpack, are sheep. In fact, as Ellul points out, it is precisely the intellectuals who are most strongly controlled by propaganda, because they are more open to every medium of propaganda.

Well, it should not be surprising to us that although books such as Professor Ellul's Propaganda -- and many others -- are readily available, almost no one has heard of them. Keeping the public believing in the myth of democracy is an important element in maintaining control over the thinking and behavior of the public. It is simply immoral and scandalous to question the reality of democracy. It's like questioning the Holocaust. And for that reason we're not likely to be taught in our social studies classes in school or to read in the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal even the most obvious and self-evident conclusions presented by Bernays or Ellul. We're still taught how democracy safeguards our freedom, even while those who control the mechanism of propaganda in our democratic society are, in my opinion, working day and night to eliminate that freedom.

I find all of this very interesting, but also a little depressing. I cannot help but agree with Bernays and Ellul that the governing role of propaganda is inevitable in a modern, centralized, technological society. Without propaganda as a coordinator for the sheeple, we would have chaos. The important thing is not to try to avoid propaganda -- we really can't do that -- but to ensure that the people who control the content and the direction of the propaganda are patriotic people and that they have the right motivations. That is the essential thing. Beside this, everything else becomes insignificant.

The frightening conclusion is that there is no peaceful way out of this situation. The Liberal/Neoconservative/Zionist/Rapture Bunny coalition never will voluntarily relinquish control of the mechanism of propaganda, and as long as they retain control America will continue down the slippery slope toward oblivion: our borders will remain open; workers imported; jobs exported. The trade deficit with China will grow to a trillion dollars, while the Communists and their media allies laugh up their sleeves.

We cannot vote our way out of our predictable demise. Either we will let ourselves be led into extinction by the masters of propaganda like lambs to the slaughter, or we will fight back, and when we fight back there will be a period of bloody chaos. When I have said this in the past, I have been accused by people who otherwise agreed with me of having bloody-minded fantasies. They did not want to face the prospect of violence and bloodshed, and, when I said that we must face it, they accused me of wanting it.

Well, I don't want it -- except as an alternative that is infinitely preferable to national extinction. I prefer a peaceful path to survival and to freedom and to progress, but I no longer believe that a peaceful path remains for us. The people who accused me of being bloody minded were people who were comfortable, who were living fairly high on the hog, and of course they didn't want their comfort to end. They didn't want their comfortable world to become chaotic and dangerous and bloody. I can't blame them for that. But they let their desire for a continuation of comfort hide the truth from them. They wanted to believe that we can vote our way out of the mess that we're in and that everything can be resolved peacefully, and so that's what they believed. I can only agree with Professor Ellul that the worst thing that we can do now is entertain any illusions about the efficacy of democracy in combating the destructive propaganda mechanism being used against us.

Thanks for your previous reply.

Last edited by capecodphyllis; 06-30-2007 at 09:36 PM.
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  #266 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2007
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Old 07-01-2007
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Old 07-01-2007
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...and even if your politics are left leaning...WFB's three sailing books are wonderfully written and illuminating.
Racing through Paradise: A Pacific Passage. Random House. ISBN 0-394-55781-6.

Atlantic High: A Celebration. Doubleday. ISBN 0-385-15233-7.

Airborne: A Sentimental Journey. Little, Brown & Company. ISBN 0-316-11438-3.
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Old 07-01-2007
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This is not mine but I think the list pretty well summarizes the liberal viewpoint.
Being a liberal today means you are in favor of, support, or see nothing wrong with, the following (not exhaustive, and in alphabetical order):
Abortion
Abolition of private property
Abolition of tradition
Adultery
Affirmative Action
“Alternative lifestyles”
Anti-Americanism
Anti-democracy
Anti conservative speech
Anti school-choice
Anti-subsidiarity
Appeasement of our enemies
Assisted suicide
Citizenship for known terrorists
Death taxes
Defiance of legitimate authority
Distribution of condoms in K-12
Diversity (except viewpoint)
Euthanasia
Female masturbation workshops in universities
Fornication
Glorification of debauchery
Godless Marxism
“Hate” crimes laws
Hate for the Christian religion
Hate for those of faith (except Islamics and Islamic bombers)
Homosexual special rights
Intolerance of the good
Isolationism
K-12 Indoctrination into Godless Marxism
K-12 Indoctrination into homosexuality
K-12 sex education
Lack of moral clarity
Moral equivalency
Moral Relativism
Multi-culturalism
Nietzscheism
Obliteration of God from the public square
Parole of vicious criminals
Pedophilia (except by Catholic priests and Republicans)
Polylogism
Pro-Europeanism
Racial quotas
Radical egalitarianism
Redistribution of OTHER peoples’ money
Release of known terrorists
Same-sex “marriage”
Sodomy
Speech codes
The individual human will (will to power)
Tolerance of evil
Tolerance Über Alles
UN one-world government
Unlimited government
Unlimited taxation
“Victimless” crimes
Voting rights for aliens (legal or otherwise)
Voting rights for felons"...

Comment by sedonaman | June 26, 2007 SOURCE:

Intellectual Conservative Politics and Philosophy » The Looney Liberal Chronicles: Postscript

Pls. note that I actually support a few of the "causes" above... (For example...I support a limited right to abortion and don't believe tht you have to support adultery to be a liberal! I hope that doesn't make me a bad conservative!) but I post the list as written in deference to the original author. I think it is rather comprehensive.

Any liberals out there wanna come up with a similar list for conservatives or dispute any of the above?



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