Democrats versus Republicans

[wind_magic]

Originally Posted by Joel73

What's he looking at, a squirrel or something, a puffy cloud ?

[PBzeer]

TD - For the life of me, I don't see why this had to be crammed through either. Nor why Bush and the Dem leaders decided it had to be this plan, without considering any alternatives. I can understand the Dems liking a massive government intervention. After all, that's what they believe in. That Bush seems to concur, only proves how little of a conservative he really is. After all, tax cuts are really his only domestic policy that isn't right out of the Dem playbook.

The only thing I know for sure is that we have a bunch of politicians, many whom helped to create this, who are trying to apply a political solution to an economic problem.

If the aim of passing "something" is to reassure the markets, then I would think that holding proper hearings with an examination of alternatives would do much more to that end.

[sck5]

PB and I agree!! They could and should have considered alternative plans (and now they are probably doing it at this exact moment).

As for Bush he seems to have become largely irrelevant. He looks completely lost in his last couple of appearances and is obviously reading lines somebody wrote for him without understanding what he is saying. Obama and McCain and the various party leaders in Congress are the only leaders filling the vacuum and they arent doing too great a job, at least not yet.

[PBzeer]

Nope, no alternative, just tarting up the present one a bit more. Any alternative would mean less government intervention, and that just ain't going to happen. A market based solution would leave the politicians without any way to impose political conditions on it.

[sailaway21]

Originally Posted by souljour2000

Thankfully the boneheads of both parties tend to keep each other in check as the founding fathers envisioned...
The divide between rich and poor has grown as good jobs have gone to cheaper workers overseas while the captains of industry have sat on their fannies and rewarded conservative thinking like building ton's of SUV's while the world has changed dramatically. We can get alot of good jobs back if we invest heavily in alternative energy and re-building the countries roads and infrastructure but the incentives have to be from both the private and government sectors. We need some imagination, and bold thinking...there are more than a few good minds already at work on these problems but they need assisitance and not nay-sayers who are still stuck in the old thinking of the 1950's like Bush and Cheney.We have to re-invent this country instead of continuing to sit on the long dead laurels of the past 50 years which bloomed with the end of WWII and its massive re-tooling/spending programs and the back to work programs of the FDR years. They continued to bloom up until a few years ago as our economy was able to exploit the almost bronze-age cheap economies that inhabitated the rest of the world while ours evolved into a space age one.Those blooms are now dead and had been shriveling for awhile frankly..It's time to propagate a whole bunch of new and fresh root stock....why not new technology?...think alternative energy and efficient automobile and housing/commercial structure design...to hell with the oil dinosaurs and the small-minded, status quo plutocrats. Cant' they all go retire with their yachts and cheesy-named Italian restaurants in some fancy planned gated community in Nicaruagua where there's no income tax?

"Imagination and bold thinking..." like bringing back those overseas jobs that they do cheaper. That's neither imaginative nor bold, it's idiotic and we tried it during the Great Depression. In fact, it's what made that depression the Great Depression.

You might consider that, in the future, there are going to be very few actual manufacturing jobs; machines are going to do that. The world is changing, you're calling for change, but the change you're calling for is of a "back to the future" variety. If those jobs were "good" jobs they wouldn't be overseas already.

Ah, technology is the answer! Why didn't I think of that? Hell, why didn't Bill Gates think of that? Damn! I cannot believe neither of us saw it-the answer right under our noses. How much do we need to invest to repeal the laws of physics. Let me know soon, this alternative universe is filling up fast and I want to get in before anyone realizes that it's just talk and not very effective as an energy source.

We need an award here for best political humour. I nominate the above post.

[souljour2000]

True that the 1950's jobs are never coming back.It can also be said that as long as we have little or no trade barriers while we let the world sell everything here we cannot compete with cheap foreign products. Just sitting back and being a 'just drill baby" nay-sayer isn't stirring the pot at all..in fact it's ludicrous...what I and people like T. boone Pickens and alot of people before us are saying is that alternative is the next progression staring us down clearly in the mirror and it make a hell of alot of sense.If you can't see it then no forum or pundit or anyone can convince you otherwise and we can agree to disagree..I think your wrong..you think i am wrong...just wish that you had something constructive to add to the dialogue besides what equates to a bunker-mentality..oh I forgot..you obviously can see the future and everything being done right now in the progressive arena is just completley foolhardy and worthy of derision...sorry I forgot.

[sailaway21]

Originally Posted by souljour2000

True that the 1950's jobs are never coming back.It can also be said that as long as we have little or no trade barriers while we let the world sell everything here we cannot compete with cheap foreign products. Just sitting back and being a 'just drill baby" nay-sayer isn't stirring the pot at all..in fact it's ludicrous...what I and people like T. boone Pickens and alot of people before us are saying is that alternative is the next progression staring us down clearly in the mirror and it make a hell of alot of sense.If you can't see it then no forum or pundit or anyone can convince you otherwise and we can agree to disagree..I think your wrong..you think i am wrong...just wish that you had something constructive to add to the dialogue besides what equates to a bunker-mentality..oh I forgot..you obviously can see the future and everything being done right now in the progressive arena is just completley foolhardy and worthy of derision...sorry I forgot.

Uh no, not exactly. T Boone Pickens makes money, period. The fact that he stands to make a lot of money off tax and energy policies enacted to help wind power concerns you not at all? If it's such a good idea, why doesn't he get private investment and not chase government money? Because it ain't gonna work. Want your technology? Want your boldness? Build a nuke, we know they work.

And guess what? We can see the future! And GM's Volt isn't going to work any time soon, either. It'll work about as well as the average solar panel does on the average house's roof; it'll be a cute gimmick. They haven't got the batteries. That's not derision (yet) or a bunker mentality, that's just the facts. To ignore them is foolhardy. Consider yourself derided. (g)

[wind_magic]

It's difficult for me to put my finger on exactly what it is about the alternative energy debate that bugs me, but something does. I think it's that when people talk about "alternative energy", it's like, so ? What exactly are you talking about ? I mean, what's the plan ? So we want to use alternative energy, well, great, we are, I do, I have solar panels on the roof, my neighbor electrifies his fence with solar panels, people's boats have wind generators, etc, so what exactly do you want ?

Okay, we want more wind generators, right ? So .... yeah, and we're doing that. Whenever it is economically feasible to do so, electric companies build big giant wind generators and harvest the winds energy to create power to supply to the electrical grid. And you want to do what else ? Of course, invest in MORE wind energy .. like, where ? How ? I want specifics. I don't just want "We're going to invest more in wind energy", well yeah, so what, and I'm going to try to eat better next year too, but what EXACTLY does that mean ? Do you think that companies aren't working like crazy already trying to invent better wind generators ? It's a huge market, there is tons of money out there chasing after the customers, it's not like they are just sitting there waiting for government to pass a bill to invest in wind energy. Power companies are building wind generation sites where ever all the components exist in the same place, things like available land, proximity to distribution lines, WIND, zoning, etc. Where ever they are able to turn a buck, they'll turn one, they aren't stupid, and they know a hell of a lot more about wind energy than any politician does.

Solar, same thing, yeah, we all want more solar. I love solar. So, what exactly is it that the government and politicians want to do ? Solar is already used where it is economically feasible to use it. It's much more expensive in most every way than coal power generation, and because of it's high cost we all use it primarily when grid power isn't available, in cabins, on boats, on highway sensors, emergency phones in the middle of nowhere, etc. As the prices come down, individuals across the world make millions of decisions every day that put more and more solar panels in place as it becomes reasonable to do so. What is the government going to do EXACTLY to help ? Do Democrats and Republicans in the senate know of a new manufacturing process that we don't already know about, did they suddenly become physics experts and devise a new way to increase efficiency, or lower cost of manufacturing ? I mean yeah, we all want solar, SO WHAT ? We all want world peace too, but what the hell is the plan ? Is it suddenly going to become better if the government takes people's tax money, buys solar panels for them, and then gives them back, essentially forcing people to spend money on solar panels even when coal power is available with more efficiency and lower cost ? I mean what is the government planning to do here. Are they going to start dropping money on government research firms or something ? Okay, you want to invest in solar power, but what does that mean ? Show me a single thing that politicians want to do that either isn't already being done, or isn't already in the works.

I just don't like all of these wishy washy pie in the sky things they say about alternative energy - we all want alternative energy, so much so that some of us have bought panels and put them up. I just don't see what the government is going to do to "help". We already have various tax incentives and things, what more is the government going to do to "invest in tomorrow" ? What does "invest in tomorrow" even mean ? We're all investing in tomorrow. I mean I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.

The government has done a great job of investing in alternative energy when it comes to fusion power, haven't they ? I mean how long have we been waiting for government funded research to develop a prototype fusion reactor, about two decades, three ? How's that working out ?

[tdw]

Right now Bush Jr (I don't even have it my heart to call him Shrub anymore) is looking like a little kid who has just found out that Santa Claus is a myth.

I have always been really down on the guy on the basis that he was a nasty venal pos and to boot dim.

Now - just dim.

Surely there isn't anyone out there who really believes this free market crap , is there ? The likes of Cheney no more believe in free enterprise than Karl Marx. They believe in a system strongly slanted to support those who have access to the trough and once that access is gained to get their collective snouts well and truely into it.

Same as Russia, same as China...cronyism of the worst possible kind, just under different names.

Now that the fan is covered in excrement then the great unwashed, your jolly old huddled and yearning masses can step right up to plate and take it in the gob. You wouldn't want my nice new Zegna to get dirty now would you ? Its freedom baby and its comin' at ya in nasty smelly parcels.

But guess what ? I have this sneaking suspicion that GB Jr did believe and that right now he is feeling pretty damn stoopid cos he's just had his beliefs handed to him on a great big plate.

First Iraq and now this. Its a bloody cruel world out their GWB but fear not, January is not all that far away and even Nixon gets a nice enough write up on the ex President's web site.

[tdw]

Ok so I just don't get it re the Alternative Energy is a load of bollocks debate either.

Great big buckets of money can get thrown at the Oil Industry to toddle off looking for the black gooey stuff, Nukes are good good good so yeah lets give give them such dosh as well but wind and solar ? P**s of you bucking hippy, what would you know.

I know what you are saying Wind_Magic and you are probably correct but lets face it, if for no other reason than cost we did have to at least begin to wean ourselves off oil and it is happening but there is much more to do.

Anyway, I no longer care. Lets face it. In the next year or so Nuclear is going to get the big nod. No risk. Environmental safeguards ? Pshaw, we are in a recession we cain't afford no environmental safeguards.

What's more guess whose country has the world's largest known reserves of Uranium ? Think Waltzing Matilda babies, think funnel web spiders, think football meat pies kangaroos and Holden cars. Oh yes, we do. Us ! The former convicts one and all and I'm gonna get me out there and buy up some shares.

(Oh and to save anyone the trouble, yes I know that Nuclear Reactors in their latest incarnations are pretty damn safe. Sure it may not be a terribly sensible idea to build 'em on fault lines but that's just quibbling. No one however has yet come up with an answer to how we get rid if the waste. When they do let me know, till then bugger it, I'll make some moolah out of Uranium shares and let the rest of you worry about the future.)

Hypocritical ?

Darn tootin'.