Democrats versus Republicans

[sck5]

High sounding words. But people can only get health care from the system we have and the money they have. You may have found a better way than most of the people. I havent and believe me it isnt because I am not trying. I am far from alone. Even you will feel the effects of doing nothing if the Federal government bankrupts itself because reform doesnt happen.

If you have figured out how to get great health care at half the price then please by all means clue us in. If it is just that you are healthy then congratulations!! I always thought sailing was good for your health!

[sck5]

More myths you guys. Ask yourself this. Why do all other industrialized countries pay half what we do and have longer lives and less wait times or rationing? The only exceptions are countries where the govt. nationalized the doctors and hospitals in addition to insurance (so dont give me examples from Britain because NOBODY wants to imitate them)

Yes. It is true. We may have "the best health care in the world" but we DONT have "the best health care system".

So no, I dont want anybody to subsidize me. I want a system where ALL of us pay half as much for the same services. It isnt hard to design. 90% of health care is plain vanilla. The only things that get argued about are expensive treatments for rare diseases and end of life measures. SO - have universal health insurance for the 90% of the treatments that nobody argues about and if you want more coverage for bone marrow transplants or the last 6 months of your life or boob jobs or whatever else then the private sector will be glad to sell it to you.

It is far cheaper to fix (for example) any broken arm that walks in the door than to hire an army of accountants to try not to fix any broken arms they can get away without paying for. EVERY SINGLE OTHER RICH COUNTRY has figured this out. Why do you think our health statistics are on a par with COSTA RICA? Literally one third of every dollar you pay your insurance company is spent hiring people to try to find reasons not to pay your claims.

There is a better way. Slogans and hiding from facts wont get us there.

If you want some facts, try looking at the wait times article linked above. For the US govts. own comparison of us vs. the rest of the world, check here

http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/ota/O.../1994/9418.PDF

[sck5]

sail king

You are lucky you get to choose. I dont. My health insurance is linked to my job like most other people. There is a network. I cant go outside of it without paying an arm and a leg. I cant get outside insurance without paying an arm and a leg. What I am saying is that the doctors and hospitals should be left as they are. They arent the problem. The problem is insurance companies. Much like my parents have medicare from the government plus an add-on policy to cover what medicare doesnt, we could do that for everyone and much cheaper than the current system. My parents have FAR more health care needs than I do but pay much less because of medicare. Why would anyone care who owns their insurance company? What matters is how much it costs and whether they give you the freedom to see the doctor you want. We can do that and much more cheaply than we do now. But some people think that would be SOCIALISM!!!! I call it cheaper.

[PBzeer]

I have one friend in Texas who carries catastrophic insurance only. Everything else, she pays cash for, at a minimum of a 25% discount over what those with insurance pay. That's just one example of "beating the system".

Putting the "system" in the hands of the government is no guarantee of improvement. Historically, it's a recipe for just the opposite.

[PBzeer]

If I wanted to live like the French, I'd move to France. I prefer to live in a country where I not only have choices, but the opportunity to have the chance to make them.

[SailKing1]

The insurance program you are on that requires you to only use doctors approve by the program was created by the government. It is just short of socialized medicine which is what happens with government intervention.

All i hear is you complaining about it's restraints, and yet you are asking for more. If the government gets involved to the degree you are advocating, you will be thankful for what you now have and wish you still had it.

[erps]

So no, I dont want anybody to subsidize me. I want a system where ALL of us pay half as much for the same services. It isnt hard to design. 90% of health care is plain vanilla.

Good point. I wonder why a small community hasn't done this on their own? That would be good business to provide something the public wants for a competitive price and make a little profit.

You know, if you're advocating that government get involved in our health, they could do it a lot cheaper by criminalizing smoking, drinking, eating sugar and white flour and not exercising regularly. Just think how healthy we would be and it would cost little on the health care budget line, although I suppose we would have to build a few extra gulogs, but at least the government could do some vigorous re-education at that point. That's not much further down the government path, is it?

As to your earlier points about waiting to see a particular doctor meets the definition of rationing, I guess we don't agree what rationing is. In my view, rationing is the government limiting a commodity, not the resultant wait for a person's particular choice for services. At lunch time, you have to wait in line to get a big mac and fries, but McDonald doesn't ration them.

[erps]

Private practice is apparently doing well in Canadian health care system, even though it's illegal to do it:

Accepting money from patients for operations they would otherwise receive free of charge in a public hospital is technically prohibited in this country, even in cases where patients would wait months or even years in discomfort before receiving treatment.

But no one is about to arrest Dr. Brian Day, who is president and medical director of the center, or any of the 120 doctors who work there. Public hospitals are sending him growing numbers of patients they are too busy to treat, and his center is advertising that patients do not have to wait to replace their aching knees.

The country's publicly financed health insurance system — frequently described as the third rail of its political system and a core value of its national identity — is gradually breaking down. Private clinics are opening around the country by an estimated one a week, and private insurance companies are about to find a gold mine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/26/in.../26canada.html

[sck5]

Rationing is not getting as much as you want when you want it. There are various ways of doing that and usually free market price competition is the most effective and efficient way. In health care it is different because the incentive for a profit seeking insurance company is to do the best they can NOT to cover people who need care. Failing that, their incentive is to NOT PAY for any care they can escape paying for. As a result they hire armies of assholes to give us all a hard time. We pay their salaries out of our premiums.

People are afraid to change. I get that. People dont trust the government. Sure, if you refuse to pay enough for the services you want, you wont get very good services. But that doesnt mean it cant be done because lots of other countries are doing it. Many people who object to change do so out of mistaken beliefs that it doesnt work in other countries. Usually that is because either they dont know anything about non-English speaking countries (and there ARE things not to like about the Canadian and Brit systems) and/or they have never been there and checked it out.

It really does work better - Less wait times, half the cost, add on policies if you think the govt plan doesnt do enough. Whats not to like about that?

[painkiller]

Originally Posted by sck5

We can do that and much more cheaply than we do now. But some people think that would be SOCIALISM!!!! I call it cheaper.

Cheaper for who? Cheaper for you, maybe. Someone else would be paying your tab. Your employer is already paying most of your health insurance tab and you want still more?

Nobody's forcing you to use the insurance plan offered by your employer.

Involving the incompetent government will only make things worse. Healthcare providers will have guaranteed customers with guaranteed government payment. Why innovate when you're on the gravy train? Why try harder when you're guaranteed a full waiting room?

You complain about those insurance companies, but maybe you should complain about your employer. You know, there ARE varying levels of coverage that you can PURCHASE from those insurance companies. If your employer paid for a more comprehensive plan, your coverage would be greater. Maybe you should ask your boss why they aren't meeting your healthcare needs by paying even more for your benefits package.