Democrats versus Republicans

[PBzeer]

I fear, that without fear, Bambi won't get what he wants.

[PBzeer]

The "New" American Dream

[sailaway21]

Our unemployment rate is fast approaching the normal unemployment rate in Europe.

[Harryeod]

Originally Posted by sck5

drynoc

Not all of the cost of your oil and gasoline is paid at the pump. Hasnt it ever occurred to you that if we didnt need imported oil we wouldnt give a rat's ass what happened in Iraq and we wouldnt have had to spend a trillion dollars invading and occupying it? (not that we did anyway, but that is another discussion). If we didnt need middle east oil we wouldnt need nearly the military expenditures we have now. Many people think it would be a fine thing to be able to supply our own energy and tell the oil countries to pound salt.

And if all the people in the world would drop their guns and give each other a BIG HUG then we could all be friends and love one another and share houses and share food and live in a nice big comune and we could make one big sail boat and sail together and laugh together and sing together and play acoustic guitar together, etc, etc etc.

[sailaway21]

Originally Posted by sck5

drynoc

Not all of the cost of your oil and gasoline is paid at the pump. Hasnt it ever occurred to you that if we didnt need imported oil we wouldnt give a rat's ass what happened in Iraq and we wouldnt have had to spend a trillion dollars invading and occupying it? (not that we did anyway, but that is another discussion). If we didnt need middle east oil we wouldnt need nearly the military expenditures we have now. Many people think it would be a fine thing to be able to supply our own energy and tell the oil countries to pound salt.

For a certain mindset, the world and it's affairs is a question with simple answers. It might do to recall that the forces and material deployed to the Middle East were primarily from obligations elsewhere. It is, and has been, DoD policy to be ready to fight in two separate large scale wars simultaneously. If peace broke out all over the ME tomorrow it would lighten the US defense obligations rather little overall.

[PBzeer]

Crude Oil Imports (Top 15 Countries) (Thousand Barrels per Day)
Country	Dec-08	Nov-08	YTD 2008	Dec-07	YTD 2007
CANADA	2,033	2,028	1,931	1,796	1,888
SAUDI ARABIA	1,394	1,487	1,506	1,675	1,447
MEXICO	1,126	1,296	1,185	1,234	1,409
VENEZUELA	1,028	1,080	1,041	1,246	1,148
NIGERIA	869	775	923	1,210	1,084
ANGOLA	553	450	504	439	498
IRAQ	519	476	627	378	484
ECUADOR	252	222	214	195	198
ALGERIA	235	381	311	348	443
BRAZIL	208	280	231	171	165
KUWAIT	194	292	206	158	175
COLOMBIA	148	160	178	113	137
CHAD	105	75	102	92	77
CONGO (BRAZZAVILLE)	95	61	67	31	63
AZERBAIJAN	78	71	73	134	57

Total Imports of Petroleum (Top 15 Countries) (Thousand Barrels per Day)
Country	Dec-08	Nov-08	YTD 2008	Dec-07	YTD 2007
CANADA	2,600	2,532	2,459	2,372	2,455
SAUDI ARABIA	1,471	1,514	1,532	1,686	1,485
MEXICO	1,228	1,406	1,299	1,322	1,532
VENEZUELA	1,159	1,236	1,191	1,387	1,361
NIGERIA	939	827	990	1,271	1,134
ANGOLA	562	450	513	439	508
IRAQ	519	476	627	378	484
ALGERIA	484	677	547	600	670
RUSSIA	382	450	463	306	414
VIRGIN ISLANDS	289	338	320	387	346
ECUADOR	258	229	221	201	203
BRAZIL	225	285	258	178	200
KUWAIT	219	292	210	158	181
NETHERLANDS	203	137	167	157	128
COLOMBIA	198	176	200	130	155

Note: The data in the tables above exclude oil imports into the U.S. territories.

Gee whiz, 2 of our top 3 suppliers are NAFTA partners.

[drynoc]

SCK5,

We had a huge military requirement long before the Middle East grabbed our attention. The requirement existed after World War I, but we chose to withdraw on ourselves. You see what that got us. Not willing to learn, we withdrew again at the end of World War II, but the fall of the Iron Curtain woke us. Keeping the communists in check forced us to maintain that military capability. There were those who wanted to seriously draw down the military when the Iron Curtain fell again, but, fortunately, they did not prevail. Having achieved hegemony, we would be crazy to give it up. We have the ability to prevent world wide wars, to assist allies, to promote and protect freedom for ourselves and others, and to ensure that our interests are not ignored by the rest of the world. It all sounds power mad to the American Left, but it is nothing of the kind. It is merely the prudent use of available resources. No matter what the Left thinks, the world will never be nice, and there will always be people who would love to see us fail.

[sck5]

nobody ever said the world was a bed of roses. But when we need so much oil its them that has US by the balls and not the other way around. Why on earth wouldnt you want to end THAT?

[sailaway21]

Originally Posted by sck5

nobody ever said the world was a bed of roses. But when we need so much oil its them that has US by the balls and not the other way around. Why on earth wouldnt you want to end THAT?

You're not going to end that. The world runs on oil, the same as plants run on photosynthesis. It's not a value judgment, it just is. The fact of the matter is that the Persian Gulf is a strategic US interest due to nothing more than those economic facts and that the US is the only nation capable of keeping those sea lanes open. So a good measure of the world economy is just as dependent on the US Navy and the rest of our military in the Middle East as is Europe on the US Army and the rest of our military in preventing Soviet incursions into Europe.

We do not live in a vacuum. If the free flow of oil does not take place, the lights start to go out not only in northern Europe but northern Vermont as well. What other nation is able to project power of such a magnitude, half a world away, on short notice? The Brits are incapable of even repeating the events of the Falkland War today, and they are one of our better armed allies. For better or worse, we're going to need essentially the same size military we have for the foreseeable future. In fact, we need a substantially larger military than we now have, given our obligations. Not uncoincidentally, our military is the one service of the federal government that serves us all equally.

[PBzeer]

Seems odd sck, that with all the points raised of late, all you can focus on is a pipedream.