Democrats versus Republicans

[sailaway21]

Originally Posted by sck5

sailaway

one thing to remember - you cant drive a more efficient car if they dont have one for sale.

and maybe more efficient cars would result in more miles driven but the real question is whether more efficient cars result in more gasoline consumed. I am happy to have people drive all over hells half acre if that is what makes them happy. What is important for national security and the environment is to try to use less gas.

I obviously misjudged the level of intelligence necessary to understand my economic illustration above. I had placed the level of cognition at somewhere around the eighth grade. I apologize for the misestimation.

[craigimass]

Here is my economics lesson.

Money.
It's only money.
Pretend that dirt was more valuable than money, because it is. Money will burn. You can't grow plants in money.

Therefore, why should anyone conserve money? You should send it to me at:
Craig Imass
1234 Brookline Teen Hockey Player Road
Brookline, Ma. 01234

[sailaway21]

...and the rest of the Middle School is heard from.

[camaraderie]

Craig...once again...your facts are wrong...COAL is by far the biggest air polluter. Cars are good...oil is good...YOU said we've reached "Peak Oil"...oil prices will go up and down...but they will TREND up more and more and people will choose more efficient cars. Such cars are already available...the government does not need to do a thing. Pollution from cars has been reduced 95% from what it was in the 1960's.
You just want government ruling every aspect of our lives and making our choices for us.

Coal generates 54% of our electricity, and is the single biggest air polluter in the U.S.

Source...Union of Concerned Scientists.

[jorgenl]

Originally Posted by craigimass

Firstly, our driving habits are poor. People think nothing of driving to the mall just to get a Starbucks or some candy, etc.

Yep, The driving habits are poor. My neighbor get's up in the morning, drives 2 miles to Dunkin Donut's, buys his morning coffee for 3 bucks and drives righbt back home again (he works from home).

And then people wonder why obesity is a problem in America.

Get out of your freakin car and walk 500 yards occasionaly...

Slight diversion from topic, I know....

[craigimass]

Cam, as to the largest pollution source, it depends upon which type of pollution you are talking about.

Motor oil, for instance, is the largest polluter of our waterways.
Surface water runoff from our roads, street and cars is incredibly dirty.

"Transportation is the largest single source of air pollution in the United States. It causes over half of the carbon monoxide, over a third of the nitrogen oxides, and almost a quarter of the hydrocarbons in our atmosphere in 2006.¹ With the number of vehicles on the road and the number of vehicle miles traveled escalating rapidly, we are on the fast lane to smoggy skies and dirty air."

Keep in mind that this pollution is AFTER we have already cleaned up the cars vastly and also increased the mileage. Just imagine if we didn't do that up until now, as many people seem to be proposing!

Also, once again, you may not be figuring on the TOTAL POLLUTION over the life cycle of the vehicle:
"Air pollution is associated with the full life-cycle of cars and trucks. This includes air pollution emitted during vehicle operation, refueling, manufacturing, and disposal. Additional emissions are associated with the refining and distribution of vehicle fuel. Motor vehicles cause both primary and secondary pollution. Primary pollution is emitted directly into the atmosphere; secondary pollution results from chemical reactions between pollutants in the atmosphere."

If we think that the only pollution a car, or the oil, puts out is what comes out the tailpipe, we are very very wrong.

My daughter is an environmental attorney (fights FOR the public) and she is involved with cases of oil companies pollution MASSIVE amount of water and land - to the point of destroying entire watersheds virtually forever.

Not only does it ruin the rivers for fishing and recreation, but the stuff has worked its way into municipal supplies and now requires billions of dollars worth of treatment to remove. Guess who pays? Yes, you and me, because the oil companies have played shell games with hundreds of companies and going bankrupt, etc....so costs cannot be recovered from them.

Once again, it is only fair to figure the true cost. When you borrow money, the cost of the money must be included. Life cycles must be taken into account.

For the same reason, Solar PV is currently not worthwhile. The cost in dollars and in energy (manufacturing, etc.) does not pay for the energy saved. That is currently true - but is likely to cease being true within a decade.

Anyway, I think if you look it up you will see that the transportation sector is considered the largest polluter in the USA. Now just imagine if the car companies had not been held to CAFE, etc. and it was 10X or more that amount.

[jorgenl]

Originally Posted by cardiacpaul

aww, c'mon, if he gets his cafe o' lait and some chocolate lady fingers, he can use the car as a bidness tax deduction, can't he? (after all, its required to do the work, I know I can't think right without my joe and smokes)

is it ok to drive to da store to pick up my camel non filters?
(just trying to get some clarity here)

And I hope he does deduct the expense.

Absolutely OK to drive to pick up the Camels as long as they are non filters and vehicle of choice does not get more than 12 mpg.

I mean if you gotta smoke, may as well go for camel non filters and get it over with. Sissy Marlboro lights just won't do it fast enough.

[craigimass]

Originally Posted by wind_magic

it is just hard to beat, that is why it costs so little to purchase at the pump, and why we are so enamored with it.

While I agree with you that it is hard to beat, your idea of low or no costs just is not reality for the USA.

Offshore total costs of development and life cycle are currently above $60 a bbl, while our land costs vary from as low as $15 to $50 or more. It takes incredible amounts of energy (oil or gas) to extract Canadian oil sands.

So if you are talking about Oil as cheap as dirt - why you must be assuming that the oil in Saudi Arabia somehow belongs to you.

It doesn't. And despite their low costs, they are not likely to give it to you at that price.

Your post is not accurate as to today. Yes, oil is still cheap at $70 a bbl and $2.50 a gallon, but not free or like dirt or stone.

[camaraderie]

No...oil runoff is NOT the greatest polluter of our waterways. Chemical runoff (fertilizers and sewage) is the greatest polluter.
That's what anti pollution laws are for. Personal cars are way down the list and have made huge improvements.

Lets all go back to living in caves without fire and eating berries while the Chinese laugh.

Oh yeah...tar sands oil is ATTRACTIVE to developers at $50 a barrel and offshore oil is far cheaper and cost competitive with land and since 40% of all oil today is offshore oil..it is quite worthwhile to produce and getting cheaper all the time as new extraction methods are develeped. You've got to stop getting your facts from the whackos....if it were not profitable today...they wouldn't be drilling today.

As to pollution: Joint study by NASA and the Smithsonian Institution, examining several decades’ worth of data, found that more oil seeps into the ocean naturally than from accidents involving tankers and offshore drilling. Natural seepage from underwater oil deposits leaks an average of 62 million gallons a year; offshore drilling, on the other hand, accounted for only 15 million gallons, the smallest source of oil leaking into the oceans. (and much of that from the middle east where standards are much lower.)

[sailaway21]

I'd sure be interested in those watersheds that have been destroyed, especially the ones that are gone "virtually forever". 'Cause I'm pretty sure that neither you nor your daughter has been through Prince William Sound lately and that was destroyed virtually forever as well. Except forever lasted about ten years in that case.

Craig's home toilet and others like it do more polluting of waterways on a good day than oil companies do today, or any day in recent memory.

Does your do-gooder daughter know what Ralph did with his old Nash Rambler?