Democrats versus Republicans

[camaraderie]

Sck...
1. I don't know where you are getting your numbers from but the "agreed upon" # with no insurance is 47 million...which includes illegal aliens, people who CAN afford their own health care and those who are presently eligible or government health care (medicaid/schip) but do not use it. After these reductions the net number of uncovered Americans is approximately $12 million abut 4% of the population...but 60 SOUNDS way better. This 4% could more easily and effectively be dealt with through the device of a health insurance "credit card" that would allow them to buy private insurance rather than another bloatocracy.

2. Unemployment in Europe at the present moment is almost exactly the same % as in the USA but it is also VERY different. In Europe it is much more difficult AND much less profitable to do layoffs than here so the ramp up of layoffs due to the recession/depression is slower and longer than in the USA. Unemployment rates in Europe are less volatile than in the USA and thus slower to react to a downturn AND more resistant to recovery. thus a 10% Euro rate means people will be outof work a lot longer. It also means that recovery will be slower since companies will be reluctant to hire until they are SURE the prospects are good for long term recovery. Finally, the Euro recession is arguably even deeper than ours at a fundamental level.

We DO need fundamental health care reforms...and I've outlined a number of areas where dems and reps COULD find common ground to reduce costs significantly and right the wrongs of the current system. What we do not need is another boondoggle for trillions of dollars that will destroy the quality of health care in this country while nominally covering everyone equally.

[PBzeer]

We already know what government healthcare looks like ..... it's called the VA.

[ssneade]

a sad state of affairs this country is in. not only the dems, but the pubs also helped land us here. the two big political parties have become drunk on their own power, and like an alcoholic, wants only more. they feel the only way to keep themselves in power, is to instill fear into the public, and in so doing, the public turns to government for reliance and assurance. someone please prove me wrong.

this whole mess is getting out of hand, and the only way to combat it is at the voting booth. but to say "my guy is ok, it's your guy's the one who has to go", is wrong, wrong, wrong! we need to send a clear and concise message to washington that the people are in control, not them. quit bickering about abortion, gun control, capitol punishment and healthcare and lets get this country back on track. the rest of the world is laughing at us while we stumble around like a drunk, trying to figure out why we're in this condition. it's insanity at its finest............

[sck5]

PB

We agree completely that everyone should pay something. I would want everyone to have a copay when they go to the doc or the hospital so they dont clog the system with pointless visits. That is how it is done in Europe, where you have to pay 15 or 20 dollars for a visit in many countries - not enough to break anyone's bank but enough to make you think about whether you really need to go - and as you say it gives everyone some ownership and responsibility if everyone has to pay at least something. Also, all those copays add up to real money to help pay for it all.

We already have govt. healthcare and it is called Medicare. The problem with it is that it has been starved of money by the Repubs for years. If we are going to have govt. healthcare then we have to do it right and not nickel and dime it to death. Many libs suspect the repubs really want to starve it so that it performs poorly and they can then point and say "See? Govt. health care doesnt work". I would agree that it doesnt work if Republicans are running it. They dont want it to succeed and have no interest in doing it right.

Cam –

I am not going to argue about 47 vs. 60 million. Hell, 47 million is a huge number too. But there are also many many people who are way underinsured. They have insurance - sort of - but not enough to pay for a real catastrophe such as often happens if people get in a car accident or something like that. Also, how many people are stuck in jobs or marriages they dont like because they cant afford to lose their health insurance? This is actually a bigger problem than many realize. How many THINK they have insurance but will be kicked out if they actually get sick and make a major claim? That happens every day. Add all these up and you get more than 60 million, easily.

You are certainly right about European labor markets being more rigid than ours. But there are also aspects of their markets that many people here would very much like to have. To take one example - it is routine in the USA to have only two weeks of vacation a year. In Europe there are very few with less than 4 and many have 6. I know a lot of people here would be happy to be docked two weeks pay a year if they could have two weeks more to, say, go sailing! But you cant do it because if you want a job you have to take one of the ones that are offered and they dont come with a month off.

Dont get me wrong. I dont wish I lived in Europe. I am a happy and proud American. But it is just plain stupid to be so pigheaded and blind we cant see where things can be improved and learn from the examples of others. We ARENT the only country in the world that has good ideas. And when our health care is literally on the same level as COSTA RICA for Gods sake, then that ought to be a signal that we can do better.

I get the feeling many people who run around saying "We're number one" when it comes to health policy never even left the country to actually see that there are some ideas out there we would do well to think about adapting to our own system.

[SailKing1]

The problem with Medicare has to do more with abuse and fraud that funding. But then most government programs have this same problem, even the military. Think of the fraud and abuse that will happen under government controlled health care.

[camaraderie]

See below for response.

Originally Posted by sck5

PB

Cam –

I am not going to argue about 47 vs. 60 million. Hell, 47 million is a huge number too. But there are also many many people who are way underinsured. They have insurance - sort of - but not enough to pay for a real catastrophe such as often happens if people get in a car accident or something like that.
Would you care to document that statement? What real catastrophe's are not paid for by even the most basic private insurance?


Also, how many people are stuck in jobs or marriages they dont like because they cant afford to lose their health insurance?
Totally agree...health care linked to jobs is an awful thing for both emploer and employee. Health care needs to be permanently portable.

This is actually a bigger problem than many realize. How many THINK they have insurance but will be kicked out if they actually get sick and make a major claim? That happens every day.
Really? That would be against the law. You cannot be charged more or dropped from any plan because you develop an illness or condition. Your rate increases may not be more than the rate increases of everyone else.
The problem occurs when one loses a job and Cobra coverage ends or you don't pay your premiums. Then, finding a new insurer with your now PRE-existing condition is impossible.

Add all these up and you get more than 60 million, easily.
Nope. 12 million uninsured.

You are certainly right about European labor markets being more rigid than ours. But there are also aspects of their markets that many people here would very much like to have. To take one example - it is routine in the USA to have only two weeks of vacation a year. In Europe there are very few with less than 4 and many have 6. I know a lot of people here would be happy to be docked two weeks pay a year if they could have two weeks more to, say, go sailing! But you cant do it because if you want a job you have to take one of the ones that are offered and they dont come with a month off.
And the folks in China and India might like a DAY off once in a while. So what? Want more vacation...be a teacher. An extra 2 weeks off is equivilent to a 4% pay raise. When I moved from one company to another, one of my concerns was loss of paid annual vacation time. The new company had a 2 weeks for the first 5 years policy. They couldn't change it for me alone. So we agreed I could take two weeks of unpaid leave a year more. Point is...companies CAN get you want YOU want if you make yourself sufficiently valuable to them and don't settle.

We ARENT the only country in the world that has good ideas.
True. But we have MORE good ideas than most. Freedom, democracy, capitalism to name a few. We should always look to learn what works elsewhere though and consider whether it is a better idea. Sometimes it is. On the other hand, on health care it is also easy to look elsewhere and see quite clearly what DOES NOT work.

And when our health care is literally on the same level as COSTA RICA for Gods sake, then that ought to be a signal that we can do better.
That is pure and unadulterated BS. Our healthcare QUALITY is #1 in the world. The best doctors and equipment and drugs are here and the WORLD comes here for treatment if they can afford it. Don't go trying to use some BS life expectancy numbers that include murders, suicides and traffic fatalities that have NOTHING to do with health care. Try comparing cancer survival rates.

I get the feeling many people who run around saying "We're number one" when it comes to health policy never even left the country to actually see that there are some ideas out there we would do well to think about adapting to our own system.
Let's hear them. Or do you just mean the idea that the government should pay for and control all medical care? Or maybe you mean like Britains idea where PSA (prostate) tests are excluded from coverage because they cost a lot. (Currently, Medicare provides coverage for an annual PSA test for all men age 50 and older. )

[PBzeer]

A further problem with Medicare is that the "lower" costs are made up by raising the costs elsewhere .... like your premiums.

There are a number of ways to lower healthcare costs that don't require government takeover. Unfortunately for those most affected, there is little to no political capital to made from them. The public option (which will no longer be optional in a few years) is the POLITICAL solution, not the economic one.

[sailaway21]

Cam responded to sck5's fallacies pretty well...I'll only add a few things...

All that vacation that the Europeans enjoy is also a reason that they live in an essentially no growth society. To be productive one does have to actually do the work at some point. Likewise, in Europe a six percent unemployment rate is nothing to get excited about. As we say, this is great work if you can get it. How long it can continue, and fund a health care and pension system, might not be a bet one would want to make.

The use of WHO numbers where we come out on par with Costa Rica betrays a common, but still erroneous, use of those numbers. There is no actual WHO study where the US and Costa Rica are comparable. There is a study with two breakdowns of it's numbers where, if you perform the type of legerdemain that would land an accountant in gaol, you can conflate things to make it look so but it's not the actual determination of the WHO that such is the case. One could look it up. ( In fact I think I did...over in the Health care thread on A-S, not too long ago.)

The problem with Medicare and every other health insurance plan is that they are not based upon a patient cure menu...everything is ala carte. Medicare and most insurance plans encourage increasing the number of tests and procedures done because they bill out on that basis. Thus you get an X-ray for a hangnail...just to "make sure" and you probably pay more for the X-ray than you did to have the hangnail trimmed. Hospitals and doctors are encouraged to "add-on" to each job what might be called options so as to run up the bill so that they can make a profit on the already under-market recompense made by Medicare.

No the co-pay shouldn't be $15-20. Whom has those numbers anymore anyway? You can't get Mario over to look at your lawn's mole problem for $15-20. The co-pay for a visit should be more in the $100 range or whatever number one might think will make the potential patient think twice about making a questionable doctor's visit. It's not the people going in for a lump on their breast that we're trying to discourage...it's the one's with a sore throat or a sore arm whom haven't bothered with taking some aspirin first before they utilize a highly trained professional with better, more important, things to do.

And, in case you missed it in Cam's post, Americans actually have the longest life expectancy if you factor out homicides and auto accidents. We have quite a few homicides and we do drive far more than any other peoples. You could look it up.

[sck5]

Hey sway, you are agreeing with me! It sure looks like you are saying we could improve our current system. It also looks like you are in favor of everybody getting to see a doctor but having to have a copay. Reasonable people can differ on how big that copay is, and I bet you and I could come to agreement on that too. The point is, there are some obvious things we can do to improve but the Repubs in Congress so far have made clear they are determined to block ANY change and have yet to come up with any serious alternatives themselves.

And as for European standards of living, they seem to be doing quite well - and I stand by my statement that a lot of Americans would rather have two weeks more vacation than two weeks more pay. After all, what the hell are we doing all that work for? In my case, to go sailing is the answer, but the amount of vacation I get determines how much I get to do. I would happily trade a bit of work for a bit more vacation. If the GDP grows a little more slowly as a result, so what? Is happiness the goal or is it GDP growth?

[PBzeer]

Hell sck, a lot of Americans would rather not work at all. They'd also like to have a newer car, a bigger boat, more retirement money, and so on and so on. Of course, if we had a Euro-style economy, more people wouldn't have to work, because there'd be fewer jobs.