Is this forum conservative? Why?

[poopdeckpappy]

Originally Posted by jorgenl

How much?

Well let's see, I've paid over $655,000 in property & State income taxes over the years, I paid for 3 kids to go to private school, which they walked to, and paid for the training & Education for the career of their choice

So; 655,000.00

<393,500.00> for use of road system @ 2% for x # of yrs
< 2,500.00> for police to write a report on a break-in
< 2,500.00> for police to write a report on a TA
< 12,000 .00> for public Library @ 1000/yr
< 0.00> for Fire or EMS
_________
$ 244,500.00 total due


I'll take it in cash, seeings that the State of Ca. can't be trusted with our money either

[Undine]

NONJY said...

Let their parents pay property taxes instead (and if they rent, then tack that right on to the rent...) - it's only fair.


For your information...
Landlords pay property taxes on their rental property and pass this cost on to the tenants as part of their rent. The landlords get to deduct the property tax from their profit. The renter "pays" the tax and gets no deduction. Therefore, RENTERS PAY PROPERTY TAX!

[bljones]

Originally Posted by N0NJY

Did you guys know the wealthiest 1 percent of the population earn 19 per*cent of the income but pay 37 percent of the income tax.

The top 10 percent pay 68 percent of the tab.

The bottom 50 percent—those below the median income level—now earn 13 percent of the income but pay just 3 percent of the taxes.

These are proportions of the income tax alone and don’t include payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare.

I know you like facts. A fact is only a fact if it is true.
The above unattributed "facts" are directly plagiarized from a stephen moore article in "The American":

Guess Who Really Pays the Taxes — The American, A Magazine of Ideas

He bases his argument on IRS data which is now almost 5 years old (see the bar graph in his article.) and is no longer accurate.

The best non-partisan current data may be from the Tax Policy Center. Their analysis of income and taxation is available here:
TPC Tax Topics | Current-Law Distribution of Taxes

The top 20 % (quintile) earn 55% and pay 69.7% the bottom three quintiles, or 60% pay 13% of taxes. here's the kicker: if you earn $65000 this year, you fall into the third quintile. Income Breaks for the 2008 Tax Model (0308 Series), 2004-2019

So, it could also be argued, that instead of waiting for a cheque you should be opening your wallet, since you may likely fall into the bottom 3 quintiles that make up those who apparently are not pulling their weight. But, then again, accosding to your bio, you are a government contractor, :[EDIT-JRP]


so you may indeed be in the fourth or fifth quintile, in which case I take it all back.

[WanderingStar]

I have noticed that the Conservatives tend to present arguments that are heavy on facts, and based on them. Even with documentation included, in this thread and the other one about liberalism.
The replies all seem to be "oh yeah, you're a racist", or some equally compelling argument.
Surely the "intellectual" left can do better than this?

[PBzeer]

WS - what you fail to realize, is that by simply stating a feeling, a liberal has stated a fact. It need have no link, bearing nor claim to reality. In fact, it can be contrary to reality. My personal favorite is "Bush lied". This is stated despite the fact that he, along with many others in a position to know, thought that Iraq did indeed have WMD's. Any review of the news from 1996 forward shows this to be true. (No, I'm not going to list all the quotes.)

[sailaway21]

Originally Posted by Sailormann

Government doesn't "take care" of me. Trust me on that. The amount of money that I remit to the government personally and through my business interests more than compensates for any and all services I avail myself of.

I pay taxes. I believe they are good. I believe excessive taxation is bad. I am not excessively taxed.

The money I earn ceased to solely be a product of my own personal efforts many years ago. I benefit from the labour of other people. The value of the money that they receive as compensation for their efforts is less than the market value of the work they provide.

This is how a business makes a profit.

Without those people, I would not be anywhere near as comfortable as I am. I depend on them for my standard of living. So I don't think it's asking too much from me that I return some of what I have taken from them. They gave it in labour and I return it in taxes.

I'm willing to give Sailormann the benefit of the doubt until he posts any clarifications on the matter.

I would say though that, based on the previous post, and erps reaction to it, I don't think he's left the wiggle room imagined.

He states that he is paying below market value. To tie in Cam's point, which is perfectly correct in theory and generally in practice as well, the only possible wage that can be paid is the market wage. If Sailormann is paying below market wage he's getting a heck of a deal that cannot last. But I do not believe that he is saying that. I think Sailormann is saying that he believes they deserve more. And Cam would likely agree that, if an employer thinks an employee deserves more he should probably pay him more or risk losing him. And if Sailormann thinks that the employee deserves more in compensation just because of his intrinsic worth as a human being he should question why that feeling does not translate into a burden upon himself personally instead of an assumed presumption on the largesse of the government and the taxpayers.

I'd point out though that the market does not recognize the intrinsic value of human labor just because it is done by real human beings. It's another question of scarcity and demand. Teachers get paid what they do not because their work is not highly valuable in intrinsic terms but because there is an abundant supply of people capable of doing the job. Rocket scientists are not so plentiful. That potential rocket scientists elect to be employed as teachers does not produce a burden to pay them like rocket scientists. Find a job that few can do and you'll likely end up wealthy. Perform a job that many can do and you'll likely end up ensconced within the middle class.

And, of course, Sailormann does not address what is superior in his payment of taxes to the government over the his employees payment of taxes to the government. There are costs involved, and inequities, of Sailormann paying the government only to have the government turn around and give the money back to his employees. You can consider it "handling fees". Those handling fees add up. Heck, just the postage involved in mailing the forms and checks back and forth is hardly insignificant. Not to mention the bureaucracy that is required to determine which employee needs further compensation.

If Sailormann paid less taxes he could also hire more employees which might make a difference in the growth of his business. Or he could stay the same and just pay those employees he has more and let them pay what is required by the government.

In the end, Sailormann pays no taxes. What he sends to the government is built into the cost of his product or service. For a given price and a given level of taxation, the less he pays his employees the more he makes. I think Sailormann and his employees can figure all this out on their own without government help. Lower Sailormann's business taxes to zero, taxing him only on his income as a company employee and let his employees pay their own taxes themselves. I'd be willing to bet that the market value for all employees would rise if such a policy were adopted. And then his employees would be free to use more of the fruits of their own labor in a manner more of their choosing, including tax avoidance! 'Cause I ain't buyin' any notions that Sailormann or any other businessman isn't doing as much tax avoidance as they legally can do.

[Sailormann]

S'way you have far, far too much time on your hands.

[xort]

This conservative pays ABOVE market value for freelance employees I hire. I think the prevailing rate is too low and so I pay a better wage than I have to; to the tune of $50/day more than most. The crew I hire are happy to work with me at the lower rate but that doesn't mean I should pay them less.

[N0NJY]

Originally Posted by sailhog

I'll admit it. I gave my Fact Brigade the day off. I gave them yesterday off as well. And the day before that, and the day before that. You, on the other hand, got your Fact Brigade working overtime! Bet they say some pretty nasty things about ol' NONJY behind his back...

LOL

I don't need a fact brigade. I can handle my own research, unlike people who want to just throw out smart-assed remarks with no substance.

[N0NJY]

Originally Posted by Undine

NONJY said...

Let their parents pay property taxes instead (and if they rent, then tack that right on to the rent...) - it's only fair.


For your information...
Landlords pay property taxes on their rental property and pass this cost on to the tenants as part of their rent. The landlords get to deduct the property tax from their profit. The renter "pays" the tax and gets no deduction. Therefore, RENTERS PAY PROPERTY TAX!

Yes, I know this.

But, neither landlords or renters without children should be paying taxes that are sent to schools - my original point.

If you have children, you should be paying for them. I should not be paying for others' children.

That's "socialism".